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M: Where did you get your love of books?
H: Good question, good question. I actually came from a family where there were no books in the house, period. I guess you could say when my brothers started school, which they did right after I was born; well, before I was even born. Then books started to come to the house. But we had no money, so there was no money to buy books. Anyway, I don’t know when I started loving books, but I learned very early that books were the most wonderful method of escape available to me. You got a book and you were in a totally different world! And the world I was living in was not a great world; it was a hard world. My father worked incredibly hard at the stockyards. … My mother was just learning to speak English; my father never learned English as well as my mother did; she got to take lessons at the local YMCA. Then I had a sister who was disturbed, and I had two brothers who were working hard in their own little way, to try to make it in this country.
M: You’re painting a good picture of your family when you got in here. So what year was this?
H: I guess ‘44, ‘45 would be when I was starting to learn to read. ‘45, I was six years old, so by then maybe I was reading a little bit. But then by about ‘47, ‘48, we were going to the library; we discovered the library, where I could go and get books for free! And I did! We went all the time to a library that was pretty distant from our house, and I couldn’t go by myself. But my mother would take me there. And I would get books, I started out with books … The ones I remember were these Betsy-Tacy books which nobody reads anymore by some author named Lovelace. And then after that …
M: Oh, Betsy Tacey’s the name of the character?
H: Yeah, two of them, Betsy and Tacy.
H: And then, I read these books about Sue Barton, Local Nurse, National Nurse, Hospital Nurse, or something like that.
So I thought, for a long time, I was gonna be a nurse. I could be as much a nurse as I could be president of the United States, let me tell you. And then, let me see—I read the Black Stallion …
M: I think you’d make an excellent president of the United States, for the record.
H: Very nice. You don’t really mean that. (Laughs) Let’s see, what else? I read all those — well, early on, maybe at the same time as Betsy-Tacy, I read all the Hardy Boy books and all the Nancy Drew books.
M: Oh really?!
H: And it was totally heaven because, there didn’t seem to be an end to them! I mean, there were hundreds of them!
M: You didn’t tell me that, when I was reading them growing up, that you had read all of them. That, you know …
H: Well I didn’t remember what they were about!
M: Yeah, me neither! I mean, at that age, I don’t know, like, you’re just reading, kinda, to read, right?
H: No, I was reading, because it was a totally different world! A totally different world, reading. I love reading about a totally different world, and I did it whenever I could. So that was early reading, and that probably got me through sixth grade.
M: So you were born in ‘39; and your parents had been in the country how many months before you got here? Or before you were born!?
H: They got here in June and I was born the following year.
M: So, June of ‘38. And you were born January ‘39. And when do you think — And, and, and … Wait a minute, let me just figure out some ages. By that time your mother was 40, and your dad was 45. And your brothers were how old when you were born?
H: Wally was 9 and a half; and Herb was 14 and a half or 15. (Counts) He was turning 15.
M: Wow, okay. And Irene must have been about 12?
H: No, no, she was one year younger than Herb.
M: Oh she was .. younger than Herb. So 14, or 13. Okay, so where — At first, well I guess, you wouldn’t remember the first couple years. Well what’s your -- I mean, this is getting away from our topic of literature, but what’s your first memory? Do you like, like can you remember anything … do your remember … what’s your first memory, period?
H: Oh, I don’t know if I could do that. I remember that there was a little boy who lived … we lived on the third floor of what my brother called a tenement building. And on the second floor lived this other little boy, Ronnie, who was two years younger than I. And I remember, we would walk … I don’t know if just down the street, or to the park together? The park was far away, it must have been just down the street. ‘Cause Mother would never have let me go very far, when I was under six. I remember that; what else do I remember? I remember actually being held by my mother at the window, at the bedroom window, to watch if my father came home from the bus. ‘Cause he took a bus to the stockyards; when he came back, he came back down Kenwood Avenue. And I would watch him …
M: Did you see him get off the bus?
H: No, no, you couldn’t see that far, but you could see him coming …
M: Oh, walking from the bus stop.
H: Right.
M: Did he wear a hat? Like a bowler hat, or anything?
H: Not a bowler hat. I mean, this was really a rugged job!
M: Okay, okay.
H: I don’t know if he wore a hat! But it’s when the boys were in school, that books gradually came into the house. And, at some point, maybe when I was in fourth grade or third grade, Wally bought an encyclopedia. We never had an encyclopedia, but some store had one of those little sales on encyclopedias. You know, you had 24 volumes for $15 or $10 or something. And he brought it in; it meant, I didn’t have to go to the library to do research; I could do it right at home.
M: Maybe when you were in second grade or third grade, you think?
H: Yeah.
M: Okay. And so he was probably a senior or something like that; he was about to leave for college. And—
H: He didn’t leave for college; Nobody in my family left for college.
M: That’s right. He stayed for college; okay. Wait, so umm … So, Well maybe ask about … your first memory is that like, I was trying to think also then: What’s your first memory of English? Because, I imagine that … your family only slowly started taking in English. But then again, by the time you’re coming online, so to spe — at like age four or five, there’s probably some English already happening. So, your first language is German; but very, very early you’re learning English. So, were any of these books in German? Or are these all …
H: No, no, no. No books in German. No books in German. My first language was German, and I spoke it for a long time. At four, I went to a nursery school. I don’t know where my parents got the money for that. But we went to a nursery school nearby. So there I only spoke English.
M: Okay, so at school. … interesting. And also, in pointing out … Sorry to interrupt, but … English would be your first written language.
H: Right, right. That’s right. One of the saddest things is that I lost all my German. Of course, I’m sure I did it deliberately. I’m sure I said, “I’m going to get rid of this language just the way the Germans got rid of us!” But it’s a shame, because I really wish I’d kept the language. I took French when I went to high school; what a stupid, irrelevant language to take! You know? Either you take Latin or you take German—or Spanish, at least!
M: Well, that’s what you—I’m sure you influenced me toward taking Spanish instead of French.
H: Well we lived in California by the time you came on — there’s a reason. In Chicago, there was no reason to learn Spanish either! You learn — Well, it’s too late, I’ve lost it!
M: So it’s your first intellectual regret.
H: Yes, that’s right. But it didn’t come to me until I was much older. I was too stupid to have that intellectual regret when I was in high school or college.
M: Okay, so uhh … So you went to nursery school, you’re speaking English there. You’re age five, and six, and seven, and you’re starting to read. You’re learning to read English about as quickly; you’re pretty quickly caught up to American kids. Your reading ability, pretty much as good as or better than a lot of the kids your age. And so you’re … You’ve got an encyclopedia, and then, Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew. So you’re learning to read, you’re reading fast. So then, what was the first … How did you mature as a reader? What came next? Let’s keep going in this direction.
H: Well the books that I mentioned—these were all books that I wanted to read. I can’t remember if we read books in school. We had books read to us; wonderful books like Mary Poppins. I remember my third-grade teacher read Mary Poppins. And I thought it was heaven, just heaven, the whole idea of Mary — of course it still is heaven, everybody feels that way. I don’t know what we read in high school! We got to high school; I know we had to read a Shakespeare. Was it Juilus Caesar? Probably Julius Caesar. I thought it was interesting. It didn’t set me off to read Shakespeare though; I didn’t go home and immediately jump into Lady MacBeth. And by high school I was also reading more things that were, like on the best-seller lists. Like, there was a book called Advise and Consent, it was all about court-room trials. I read that.
M: Like a John Grisham of that day, kind of?
H: Yeah, probably. Probably. I can’t remember who wrote it.
M: I’ll look it up.
H: And then of course you read Gone With the Wind, I mean that was wonderful in high — I mean, my god! You know …
M: Were you reading it before the movie came out? I guess it would have … The movie was … had already been made?
H: I have no idea. All I know is, I read the book before I saw the movie.
M: And do you remember—
H: I can’t remember the movie very well! Except for Clark Gable.
M: But it didn’t hinder your enjoyment of the movie, that you’d read the book?
H: Oh, no, it doesn’t. And you know, the books not— The movie’s never as good as the book. Whatever you imagine Rhett Butler to look like, or whatever you imagine Leslie Howard; I can’t remember the role he played. But, whatever you imagine, the person who played it never lived up to — Except Leslie Howard did, he was really good. Anyway! What other books was I reading; I just can’t remember.
M: Well, high school is kind of a uhh, almost a fallow period for a lot of readers. You know, there’s a lot of assigned reading in school, and therefore people’s enjoyment of reading tends to slow down. Did that happen to you? You remember when kids my age in high school were starting to like, ‘Oh, I don’t read at all,’ or …
H: It hurts me when you say that! I can’t stand it! No, when we were in high school, books were just wonderful; they were absolutely wonderful. I’m trying to think of how much I loved them. Of course I can’t …
M: As mechanisms of escape.
H: They were escape, but they were introductions to such — Oh, I s thinking. One of the things I read in high school … Of course I was influenced by my brothers and by Elsa. Elsa gave me my first book of my own, I remember …
M: Elsa, for anybody watching, is your oldest brother’s wife. Who would have come into your life …
H: And they got married when I was nine. And I think maybe when I was ten, she gave me a book called Delora, which was written by the same person who wrote Rebecca. I’m pretty sure that’s right.
But anyway, she gave me that. But I started reading Dickens; you know, and I loved Dickens! I loved Oliver Twist; I loved David Copperfield. What I really loved, and I still, to this day, I think I should read it again, is A Tale of Two Cities. I mean, that was the most romantic, vividly historical fiction book I’d read, ever, until then. I mean, it’s just such a great book. And you know, the end of it when he says, ‘This is a far, far better thing I do, then I will ever have done. This is a far, far better place I go to … .’ I mean he’s about to go to get killed! I mean, it’s … a fabulous book! I mean, there’s just so many authors out there to read! They were amazing …
M: So you think … that was the first of the classics that you got into. The first great author …
H: Maybe, maybe. I’m trying to remember if I read Rebecca. But I can’t remember. Oh, but … you know, the other thing I read, earlier. This was back in fifth, and sixth, and seventh grade: I read all the Louisa May Alcott books. You know, Little Women, Little Men, Jo’s Boys. I mean, I thought that was fabulous. And so maybe after that, that would be like, middle school. Well we didn’t have middle school when I was in school, it was K through 8. But when I got to high school, I could read things like Jane Eyre, and, what’s the other one, Pride and Prejudice. I didn’t enjoy them as much then as I would many, many, many years later when I read them again. But they were fab— And they were all escape! Because none of these people had problems like I had problems. Unless maybe, you could look at Oliver Twist. But I obviously wasn’t in the streets begging. You know? So if I identified with him, it was really a stretch. I mean, really a stretch!
M: So, umm. I also, I mentioned kids in my generation growing up in high school, and saying they don’t read. But I’m thinking; and I ask you about your high school experience. But I remember one thing about your high school experience is, didn’t you — is that when you skipped grades? Did you skip grades in high school?
H: No, elementary school.
M: Okay, so you did four years of high school?
H: Oh, yeah.
M: Okay. So you were done with high school at what age?
H: Seventeen. Seventeen and a half.
M: Were you younger than most of the kids?
H: No. My friend Susie was …
M: The same age as you.
H: I turned seventeen in January; we graduated in June. She was seventeen the following September. I’m not sure she was the youngest in the class, though. When we got to high school, the youngest kid in the class was Herbie Hancock, who was much younger. I don’t know if he was a year younger than she was? I don’t know how he did it.
M: And you’re talking about the famous musician Herbie Hancock.
H: I am. He was, by the way, voted the most likely to succeed. And guess what? He did.
M: That’s something. And he was the youngest. In your grade. How many kids were in that school with you?
H: High school? The high school, I think, had 3,000 kids.
M: So, quite a few. So you didn’t know every kid. So, 750 kids in your class.
H: Well, six hundred and something.
M: But you did happen to know Herbie Hancock.
H: Oh, yeah. We were friends. He was a fine kid. Very good. Arrogant; not filled with hubris. But, he knew it. He was creative. Creative and successful and warm and generous. And he loved his muisic!
M: So he played multiple instruments at the time or …
H: All we knew about was the piano.
M: I wonder … So he read music in addition to whatever reading assignments he was doing for school.
H: And he was probably writing music at the time, but we wouldn’t know that.
M: Uh huh. So those are some of your favorite books in high school. Anything else in high school we should include in this … literature retrospective.
H: Not that I can remember right now; I can’t remember right now.
M: Let’s … we can always go back, so let’s press forward. So you get a scholarship, you go to the University of Chicago …
H: Yeah, I want to point out that I would have never gone to the University of Chicago if it weren’t for my brother Wally, who went to law school there. And he must have been in law school … Well he graduated in ‘52. …. Anyway, he was the one who told me that when there was an exam for the University of Chicago, I should take it. Otherwise I don’t think I would have even known, that there was an exam that I could take. But I did take the exam, and it got me into the University of Chicago, with some money! They gave a lot of money in those days.
M: By that time it must have been ‘56; so he graduated law school in ‘52?
H: Right. And I went into college in ‘56.
M: Okay. Was he still living with you at that … like, when did he move out?
H: No, ‘52. (Nineteen fifty-two) to ‘53 he went to Israel for a year; he graduated law school in ‘52; and went to Israel from ‘52 to ‘53. He was at Queen Elizabeth’s coronation! He was with people outside in the crowds; not inside anywhere …
M: It sounds like you’re getting English … it’s not like your brothers needed to get, to bring books into you so you could get them. Like you were getting books, you were going to the library; you had a lot of sources of books. So you … so, while your brother Wally, your brother Herb, but also …
H: Oh, that was something! I must say something else; I must say something else, about books. Herb got married in ‘48, so he left. I knew it was going—I remember reading books when I babysat for his kids. But Wally had books in the house, paperbacks, I don’t know. He had jobs, he always had jobs, from the time he got to this country. And he made money, and so he had paperback books. And so that was a whole source of reading for me. That was way above my understanding level. But it was there. So that’s the first time I read James Baldwin. Go Tell It On the Mountain is the book I remember; but there are others. And there was a … somebody who wrote about Greek gods, that he had all these books. And I thought they were just terrific! I should ask him, but he’s not alive anymore, so I can’t ask him. But it was a whole, it was a exposure to a whole bunch of other books, that I wouldn’t have come across, if they weren’t in the next room. And he didn’t mind that; he didn’t mind anybody else reading his books.
M: So there’s not like a huge — You didn’t move, you, nor he, did you guys move when you went to college. So high school becomes college, but the story didn’t change drastically with the way … Except, I suppose, you have more reading assignments, in college. Did you have a major right away?
H: No.
M: Okay. And so you’re taking general education classes, did you have any .. umm ..
H: Favorite classes?
M: Yeah!
H: Well, the best class I took there .. There were two classes that were really wonderful. One was (Sociology) 1. Which was nothing but American history. But it was a really wonderful … intro into American history, ‘cause it was all original documents. And we never did that. We used to read text books in high school. Read the text book; read Chapter 11 and answer the questions at the end of the textbook, right? That’s really dull; that’s one way to really ruin it. This ohter class at the university was terrific. And then, there was … I mean, the best class I took probably was called The History of Western Civ. Which is, of course, that’s out now, because you don’t just teach Western Civ; it just pushes colonialism and all that kind of stuff. But the class was just marvelous. And it started with the Greeks, and the Hebrews. And it moved on from there. And it stopped at Jesus Christ. And it moved on from there to Constantinople … and the church, and who was that guy? There’s a famous churchman who wrote something called City of God.
M: Oh, I don’t know. Augustine? Or something …
H: Augustine! I mean, we read these things that highlighted Western Civ in a way nothing else could. I mean, did we read part of the Peloponnesian Wars, by Thucydides? I can’t remember. It seems like we would have, but I’m not sure! Anyway, it was one of the best courses I ever read; those two courses made me a history major.
M: That was eventually your major, that’s right.
H: It was a double major; because I had an education and history.
M: Oh, yeah?
H: Yeah.
M: Umm. .. Okay. So, is that the beginning of you being interested in nonfiction, you would say? Like, that’s … I guess history is .. some of the best nonfiction you were reading.
H: Right, right, right. I still preferred fiction, though. I much preferred — I have always preferred fiction. But history always surprises me. Or nonfiction surprises me, too. I mean, last year, I read this book by this guy Levitsky called Why Democracies Fail. I mean, it was terrific; it was absolutely a wonderful book! So I’m always surprised when I read a nonfiction book that really gets me.
M: So did — One thing that’s sort of surprising to me I guess; I picture you .. You’ve read to me when I was a kid. You read to a lot of students, fast-forwarding ahead … just to go back. But, Grandma Toni, I don’t picture her reading to you.
H: No, she never did! They were not big readers! The big readers were the two guys! Herb and Wally, who read enormous amounts. But my parents didn’t. Now, if there had been German books around, would they have read? I don’t know. But there weren’t.
M: Right. Perhaps, probably …
H: Well, if they’d wanted, if they’d really wanted … We were not a family of intellectuals. It’s not that they weren’t smart. That my father wasn’t smart (or) my mother wasn’t smart. It’s just that they just didn’t have the skills to allow them to go into intellectual things, and they didn’t have the time; they didn’t even think of it.
M: Yeah. I’ll buy that. So do you remember teachers reading to you?
H: Oh, I told you! Mary Poppins. I can’t remember other stuff, but they did. They erad to us and it was wonderful. It was always the 15 minutes before school ended. You really hated school to end, because the bell rang, and then you couldn’t hear anymore.
M: (Laughs) Well-planned
H: But that didn’t go on much … I don’t think that went on after fifth grade. I don’t think anybody read to us. Which is a mistake! I suggest all teachers read to their kids. Find something that really hooks them, and … Not Moby-Dick; that wouldn’t hook ‘em.
M: Well a lot of study groups do like, reading … you pass the reading around. You know? You read a paragraph, and then the next person reads, and then the next person reads. Have you been in any classes like that?
H: Well, maybe early. It really depended on who was reading, whether you paid attention. If you had a good reader, you paid attention. If you had a rotten reader, you stopped paying attention.
M: Yeah, okay. Yeah.
H: Some kids were wonderful at it! They were!
M: I mean I guess part of what makes a … Maybe an actor is largely a good reader. You know, because, you’re just reading your lines, or …
H: Maybe … maybe. Acting was not part of the curriculum where I went to school.
M: No, no. Me … Not where I went either. Although, there were probably classes one could have taken. Theater! I’m sure they had that at University of Chicago.
H: Not that I knew of!
M: You’re a good reader but you don’t want to be on stage, particularly.
H: That’s right.
M: Although … I mean is that? … That never … Why do you think … I’ll move on to the books theme, but any thoughts on how come that never …
H: Appealed to me?
M: Yeah.
H: Well, when I was seven years old, I had to give a speech. I was in Hebrew school, and we were … they were having a consecration of my grade … they were coming in, they were being brought into the fold at this Friday night service. And I had to give a speech, which I practiced at home. I was so scared! I was so—I didn’t see how I could go up on that stage and even open my mouth. And my brother Herb bribed me. ‘You do this, Helen, and I’ll get you a doll.’ So Helen went up there and did it. I mean, the cost to me—I mean, my hair turned grey! I mean, it was so awful … And i have never—No matter how many times I have gone up in front of a group in spoken I have always hated it! So acting had absolutely no appeal to me.
M: But, you probably didn’t hate reading to kids.
H: No, that — reading to kids, but talking to an audience of people. That was just way too much for me.
M: Maybe more on that in a little bit. Let’s try to advance through … from majoring in history and education, you did teach for a few years. That was, kind of—that put you on stage for a little bit. You probably read to those kids.
H: I don’t remember.
Umm, but then you start teaching history. And then, so then—Just talk about the period in your twenties, basically the 1960’s. So what can you say about what you were reading during those years? I know it’s a lot of personal stuff went on in your life during the 1960s. You last your father, you lost your first husband. But … yeah!
H: I don’t know; I must have read a lot. But I don’t remember. I took a class at night, down at the University of Chicago; cause I still lived in Hyde Park, which is where the university was. I had this apartment. With a couple of friends from my school, my community college where I was teaching at, I took a course on Athens. And what it was, it was a course on the Peloponnesian War, this book by Thucydides, which is just an absolute wealth of information about the Greeks, and Socrates and Alcibiades.
And who’s … Thucydides! No, there’s somebody who’s the head of Athens—Pericles, that’s right, that’s the hero. Who’s constantly being compared by the teacher to Lincoln. It was just such—But it was such a living class! Here are all these dead Greeks, constantly referring to: democracy and Greece, democracy and the United States. I mean it was a —Anyway, that was the kind of reading that I did for a while, there.
M: As a graduate student?
H: No, no, no, I was teaching already.
M: Oh, you were teaching, okay. Okay.
H: You could go audit classes. I don’t know how much it cost to audit; you just sat in, and listened to this guy, whose name was David Grene, who was a pig farmer in Ireland. He was also an intellectual, and he’d retired to his pig farm. But he would fly in for these courses for one quarter or two quarters.
M: Okay. David Grene. A pig farmer from Iowa, but he taught some good
H: He new Greeks. He knew Greece. It was very, it was great. What else did I do? That must have been the year, those years, must have been when I read Buddenbrooks, Thomas Mann. And Death in Venice. What else? But that doesn’t mean I didn’t read a lot of junk at the time too. I just can’t remember the junk, which is the definition of junk, it’s the stuff you can’t remember.
M: Huh. Not memorable.
H: That’s right. Not memorable.
M: What’s — Would there be a formula for the junk?
H: I don’t think so. Whoever was writing big stuff. Like, David—what am I saying, not David. What’s Roth’s first name?
M: Philip.
H: Philip Roth, right. I mean, Philip Roth came out; he was teaching at the University of Chicago while I was there. Before he went to the Iowa workshop in Ames, Iowa. He taught—A friend of mine had a mad crush on him, but he was only around briefly. But right after that, after I read Marjorie Morningstar, which was I think his first big, successful book; he came out with a book whose name I’m not gonna remember; it all took place in Hyde Park, which is where we were living. Now there’s nothing more exciting than to have a book about the corner that you’re walking down, and the street you’re walking down, the tropical hut where we all ate dinner when we could afford it. I mean, you know, it was great.
M: I think Jonathan Franzen had a book called Purity in Oakland, recently. Or maybe it’s just —
H: Is that what it’s called? Just Purity, is on the shelf (in the other room.
M: Yeah, that one’s kind of; I relate to it there. But like, umm, I was gonna say, Philip Roth, like Jonathan Franzen, I wouldn’t think of as junk. You know?
H: Well no, he wasn’t junk. I certainly— But, he had this style, and Franzen has it too, but I don’t know very much about Franzen. But Philip Roth was this tough, sharp, Jewish kid. And it came through in every one of his books; he never let it drop. You know his mother, his relationship to his mother. He was good. He was good. And that was year … those were the years that he published that book, what was the name of it? I’d have to go in the other room to look it up.
M: His most classic book or whatever
H: Not classic! Well, that was a great book, American Pastoral, was fantastic. But he wrote one about—It reminded me a little bit of Catcher in the Rye. You know, Catcher in the Rye … I forgot that, I read that in high school for a book report. And she didn’t like that I read that book, because it was a forbidden book; you weren’t supposed to read that book.
M: Ohhhh!
H: I still don’t know why it was a forbidden book. I have to go back and read it again to find out why.
H: I mean the kid was swearing a lot, I suppose.H: I think, I always wonder if it was masturbation. I just don’t remember. But anyway, Roth wrote a book that was just filled with offensive stuff.
(Editor’s note: Roth’s most controversial novel, largely due to its treatment of sexual episodes very much including masturbation, per his Wikipedia, is Portnoy’s Complaint. Also, on Roth, his first major work was not Marjorie Morningstar (another 1950s novel written by another Jewish, American novelist) but rather Goodbye, Columbus. Meanwhile the Roth novel that included scenes set in Hyde Park might have been Letting Go.)
M: Yeah, I think I know—It’s also more … Maybe like … Maybe more masturbation in that also. … Maybe some title of Roth’s … I have some vague association with what you’re talking about there. That there is a Roth book that is known for some kind of …
H: Known for something!
M: I mean … Not, you know …
H: And that was when I read Saul Bellows. A little bit of Saul Bellows. What’s the one where … Seize the Day. There were others.
M: I don’t know if you chose a Saul Bellow … I was gonna … I should have brought it prepared, a list of the books we read in our family book club.
But I’m sure you chose, or some one of us chose; we read a Saul Bellow book, just 10 years ago
H: It wasn’t Henderson the Rain King.
M: It might have been Henderson the Rain King!
H: I can’t remember what that was about, but I know I read it.
M: (Laughs) Same! Well so, Anybody else like Philip Roth who was in your orbit like that. Like at University of Chicago or out of University of Chicago? Like famous, professor types.
H: I’ll have to think.
M: Herbie Hancock, would be another …
H: He never made it to the University of Chicago.
M: … person in your orbit that was famous.
H: He went to college somewhere else. Who needs college if you’re a musical genius!
H: But then, I guess … The other question would be, if there were any—if you developed an affinity for any era of fiction. You know, like, the Beats or …
H: Kerouac.
M: Or American authors? Or European authors? Or authors translated … Or old — Thomas Mann is pretty old, right?
H: Well he died, probably in the ‘60’s. I went through a period but that’s because … See, when I went back to graduate school, after I’d been out teaching history for a while, I came back and did Russian history in graduate school and got a PhD, I can’t believe it. in Russian history. But we did a lot of Russian literature and I read a lot of Russian literature. And I’ve got to say, there isn’t anybody that beats Dostoevsky and Tolstoy. I know Chekhov is a genius, and I know Gogol is a genius. But there’s nothing like Fyodor Dostoevsky, and Leo Tolstoy, they’re amazing.
M: Did they cause you—like, were they the reason you chose Russian history?
H: No. I don’t know why I chose it! Subsequently I decided, this was a huge mistake! Because guess what: I didn’t speak Russian! I had to learn Russian. Learn Russian, are you kidding? If I’d had German, it would have helped a little bit because they have, kind of a typical language structure. They have all these different cases. You know, instrumental, genitive, stuff like that. I didn’t know from any of those! I had to learn all that stuff, and I didn’t learn it; the language was always just beyond me. No, and I didn’t read them in Russian, I read them in English. But they were amazing; they were really amazing.
M: Then, so that was a benefit of that choice of majors.
H: Yeah. It was wonderful. It was just wonderful.
M: Was it something about Nicholas and Alexandria that made you choose that?
H: No, no, no. Nicholas and Alexandria were—no. I mean, I think that Russian history—I took a Russian history course one summer at theUniversity of Chicago, with some guy named Confino, who I’m sure is no longer alive. (Editor’s note: Michael Confino passed away in 2010; his son Alon is still alive. Though both are professors, I can’t be sure either was the teacher of the course in question.) He was an Isreali guy who came and taught this class. And it’s fascinating history. I mean, those people have been running around trying to find a government that could rule them with some kind of sensibility and sensitivity, for decades, centuries, and they can’t find it. And, I was interested in the period before the Revolution. To see how it came to that. How did it come to Bolshevism? How did it come to communism? So … I took classes on …
M: And communism had a different — well, I guess it was … McCarthy was at work. What year was McCarthy doing hearings, the Red Scare ...
H: (Nineteen fifty) to ‘53
M: So, that had already happened. He was on the scene, and he was out. Okay. So communism was, sort of a dirty word?
H: Well, it was a dirty word, but … None of us at the University of Chicago thought it was a dirty word. We thought it was all ridiculous! You know, we thought: They’re in their country, we’re over here. I don’t see any communists around. Of course there were communists around. It’s stupid to think there weren’t communists around. I didn’t know anybody who was a communist. All I knew was that my math teacher, my college math teacher; high school math teacher … lost his job because he wouldn’t sign a loyalty oath.
M: Really, wow!
H: And that made us very pro-communist.
M: Wow, that’s fascinating. Geez!
H: I don’t think he was a communist; he had principles. He had principles: ‘You know what I am, I’m an American citizen, I teach here and I’ve been doing it for years.’
M: That’s incredible. Wow, I wonder what happened to him!
H: Well, he probably got a job somewhere else, not in California.
M: You mean, not in Illinois.
H: Illiniois, I meant. Yeah, right. He probably came to California to find a job!
M: (Laughter) He probably did. Okay. So did you read—what about like, dovetails with when I talked to dad. Did you read any Marx?
H: We read Marx. We read— What’s the easy one?
H: That’s it. We read The Communist Manifesto. And we read selections from Das Kapital.
M: For your PhD or before that, you think?
H: It must have been for my PhD. I don’t think they had— I can’t remember the thing on … (If) the Communist Manifesto was part of Western Civ, it could have been. We had to read some Freud for the part of Western Civ. But we didn’t read any Darwin. I mean, I always think of—the big names of the 19th century were Marx, Darwin, and Freud, right?
M: I remember you reading a biography of Freud recently.
H: Yeah, I got into that for a while. I was looking to see what people said about Freud, or how Freud affected them, and stuff like that.
M: So, you had sort of an appreciation for these … I wonder if it’s like … I mean, it sort of develops with Dickens. But like—where you read classics, these authors that are highly recommended. You check ‘em out, and you’re like: Yeah, the hype is true.
H: Also, I think that with Freud, it’s particularly interesting because … Okay, so Darwin, Marx, and Freud. Marx and Freud are both German; you know? That’s from my past. That’s from where I come. Now I don’t know if Freud came from Vienna; I think he may have come from some town outside of Austria. Near Austria but … you know, come up with a whole new system of understanding human behavior. And he’s German. And he’s writing about people who so influenced our human behavior. Like Hitler. Or like Moses, or something like that. So I think that that’s what the fascination was. Was a connection to my past. Plus, the interest in psychology, which was much more prevalent in the 1950s and ‘60s than it is now.
M: Oh yeah?
H: I think so. I think so.
M: Okay. You read any other psychologists?
H: Good question. I don’t know. Liang, there was some guy named Liang, in England; who I read some case studies that he wrote. There may have been some others who I can’t remember.
M: Okay. I’m curious about that pairin—not pairing, but that association of Freud, Darwin, and Marx. Because I don’t know if I’ve ever heard those three … together. Was it just, you think you saw them placed together in some other group, or did you just consciously place them together as maybe the three that you maybe read the most of at that time.
H: Well I’m sure that I heard from others that those were the great minds of the nineteenth century. Did they live into the twentieth century? Well Freud did. Though I don’t think Marx did and I don’t think Darwin did. Though I don’t know how long Darwin lived. But I mean, you think of the big theories that they come up with and nobody had ever thought of before. I mean, maybe people came close to Marx. It’s possible; you had these other writers who were writing economic history. But I mean, what they did was just open up whole new fields! And all of a sudden there were fields that had not been there before.
M: So …what’s … I hear that you liked Dostoevsky and you liked Tolstoy. What did you like about them? What’s so great about them?
H: I mean, you look at somebody like Dostoevsky. I mean, he was Freud before Freud was Freud. He has these characters, who have these inner thoughts and inner passions, that control them. And you know full-well they shouldn’t be controlled like that. They’ve got to stop acting like that. I mean, is it in Crime and Punishment, where he kills this old lady! I mean this guy, who’s an ordinary person; now why does he kill this old lady? What does it mean? Is it just a killing, a random killing, he wanted her money! I mean, it’s fascinating, you know? And then, what’s the other one that I like? The Brothers K. I mean my god! Look at those different characters. Who was the one, the good guy? Asi—It’s not Asimov; I can’t remember his name.
M: Isaac Asimov is a science fiction writer. No, I can’t remember any character names from Karamazov.
H: There was this boy who’s practically an angel. I mean, he is practically an angel! He’s so good. He’s a representative of good. And then there’s Ivan. He’s not the representative of evil, but boy is he confused! He has all the passions there. Who are the others?
M: I don’t remember—I liked the book.
H: It’s time to read the book again!
M: Maybe, if we want to re-read a book together, that would be it.
H: He’s just amazing. And Tolstoy—Tolstoy, was incredible. Is he living at the same time? Yeah, he’s living at the same time! Dostoevsky died in ‘81, 1881. Tolstoy lived a lot longer. He lived till 19-something. And I don’t think they ever met. I’m not sure, but I don’t think they ever met. But I mean, here … He just writes these stories,… This long, this thing War and Peace. Forget War and Peace, what’s the other one? Anna Karenina. I mean, it’s this 500-page, 600-page description of what life is like in Russia for the upper class, or the almost-upper class, in the 19th cent—And just, bringing it together, you see the way people lived. And what was going on in their heads. And how crazy—And that one scene; There’s this one scene on the battlefield during the Napoleonic Wars, and Pierre is there on the ground, and he’s been injured. And he looks around; and his picture of war, and what war is in this world — It’s unbelievable! But it’s not done with that psychological stuff, but it’s there anyway. And what makes people behave the way they do. It’s beautiful, it’s just wonderful, it’s terrific. You think we should stop?
M: We getting tired? I mean we’ve got … This is good stuff. Let me ask like a couple more; but we can stop soon. Yeah? Should we take a break?
H: Nope, I’m fine.
M: Okay. Well, let me ask; what do you think … like, you … I mentioned getting your thoughts about writers, and you went something like, ‘Whooh!’ Or like, writing. What is that about?
H: I’m not a good writer. It’s very difficult for me; If I’m just writing off the top of my head, I’m okay. You know, if I have to write a letter for a certain purpose, or write a description of something for a certain purpose, I can do it. But if I have to write a paper, it’s just agony. And writing my dissertation was just agony. And if it hadn’t been for your father I would never have; if it hadn’t been for your father’s help, I would never have been able to do it. I’m just not a good writer. You are a good writer. He is a terrific writer. I am not a writer. The ability to write is I think an incredible one.
M: So and … I guess, that dissertation was in a way, that was a frustrating experience. What was the conclusion of that? You wanted to find out what brought the Russians to that point where Bolshevism took over. What did you learn?
H: No, no, no. It was not about the Bolsheviks at all.
M: But you mentioned when you were deciding how you decided to study that, that that was an interest of yours.
H: It’s fascinating because here’s a whole country, that has been ruled by this one family for many, many years. And ruled very, very badly, as a matter of fact. Everybody would admit, they were a particularly dumb part of the ruling class at that time. I mean, they were related to Victoria, they were related to the German kaisers — but they were stupid! And somehow there was no … Education came later to them. They didn’t start getting educated in the Western way, till the what, eighteenth century? Yeah, eighteenth century. And it was a very thin upper class. And it was an upper class half of which didn’t want anybody else to be educated. They liked things just the wya they were. And the story is, always how the boyars, who are the aristocrats, how they would run these estates with these serfs, who were basically their slaves. And, they’d be losing money, and they had no idea. They didn’t know they were losing money! There’s no reason why they should know. They just went merrily on their way. Well how can you have an upper class like that? And then you have these groups of people that start getting educated. who are horrified! You know, they’ve got to fix things, and they have no power to fix things at all. The only way they can think of to fix things, is to leave the country, go to France, and be intellectuals there! I mean, it’s a very .. it’s a country that’s fascinating.
M: Yeah. You hear that, even today—What do you think about Russia today, as it’s evolved? Do you have a sense of it? Or …
H: Well I think one of the reasons they’re not a democracy is that there’s no history … It’s very hard to put democracy in a place that’s always had a huge bureaucracy, or big upper class that tells you what to do. I mean, you can try to do it but it’s very difficult! I mean, Russia shows in the most extreme way. I mean, the patience you need for democracy; you have to be willing to go through a lot of twists and turns and mistakes. I mean look at us! Twists and turns and mistakes. And the scary thing is we might lose it. Because we’re not sure it works anymore. Look what happened to poor Trump. He lost that election. And he won’t admit it! And that’s the exact thing that you can’t have in a democracy. One deal you have to make is you go by the results of the election. You don’t do that, you don’t have anything. Aren’t you glad I got that in there? (Laughs)
M: What polit—Any authors that were politically influential to you? Since you wanted to get something in about politics. What about any writers that wrote about politics that you connected with?
H: I … I … There’s so many writers. I’m sure I don’t even remember most of them. I mean, I read de Tocqueville at one point, and that was fascinating, just fascinating stuff. We had to read; I mean … This is corny, I think Lincoln. I think Lincoln is one of the most beautiful writers I’ve ever read. And it’s only speeches, I mean he didn’t sit down and write, you know, diaries … Just a brilliant man, who really understood how the American system worked. Let me think of some more. There must be some more.
M: Writers from the Chicago Tribune?
H: No. Nobody from the Chicago Tribune. I heard they were just bought up by some big hedge fund. McCormick would turn over in his grave; that was the person who used to own ‘em when I was in Chicago. Who were the writers? I think people like Martin Luther King.
M: Again, speeches.
H: Right.
M: What about, what if we just fast-forward to things that you read in the ‘70s and ‘80s. As you moved to California; anything that you remember like, surprising you. ‘Cause I imagine, in your early thirties, in the early ‘70s, that’s when you were reading Tolstoy and Dostoevsky. Because that’s when you were doing your graduate work. But the late ‘70s, that’s when you guys started moving—you left Chicago. You remember any reading that was comforting to you when you were in Taiwa—-no, Hong Kong, for a year, or …
H: I really, what I discovered in Hong Kong, was … What’s that book about Japan? The discovery of Japan?
M: Oh, I don’t know, but I do .. I vaguely know.
H: It’s very long. It’s very long. It was great. I loved it. But I don’t remember what the name of it was.
M: Right, me neither. I’ll try to link it if I figure it out, and I’ll double-check with you later.
H: It’s amazing.
M: Are any, you know … I guess, you know, I tried to prompt you with the idea of whether there’s a formula to the junk … stuff. Classified as junk? What I was getting at was …
H: Mysteries! It’s taken me till now to get to the point that, somewhere in the late ‘70s; or no, early ‘70s, a friend of mine introduced me to mysteries. I’d never read mysteries! I thought it was just fantastic! All of a sudden—First of all there was Agatha Christie. And Michael Innes! And George Simenon! Those are like classics, the ultimate of French, British, and American. Well, I guess they’re all British. Two are British and one is French. And then after that there were all the rest of them! I mean Hammett! And Chandler! And that guy, Nicolas something, what was his name? He was Dutch. And then there were the Scandinavians. I mean, they’re writing now. I just die over those. I really do!
M: So Agatha Christie was maybe one of the first, then, for you?
H: Yes, definitely, one of the first.
M: Was she one of the first, actually, to start the genre? Or no, it’s been going on for longer …
H: No, Edgar Allen Poe. And I’m sure that, you know.
M: Edgar Allen Poe, okay.
H: And Sherlock Holmes! I mean, you mustn’t forget Sherlock Holmes!
M: Did you read Sir Arthur Conan Doyle?
H: Oh absolutely. I read Sherlock Holmes before I was into “mysteries,” when I was younger. I liked them, but it never occurred to me that there was a whole field out there for me.
M: Right, right!
H: That’s true, I forgot all about mysteries, isn’t that amazing?
M: And then you actually had a friend who was a mystery writer!
H: What do you mean? Is a mystery writer. I went to graduate school with Sara Paretsky. I did know famous people; I was in a place where there were famous people. Hyde Park High School —
M: You didn’t talk to her much about her writing process or anything like that—
H: I haven’t talked to her since she published her first book. She came to my—
M: Oh, when you knew her, she wasn’t a mystery writer yet.
H: She was a graduate student in history. And, umm … The last time I saw her was at my wedding. She came to my wedding, and then we moved to Buffalo. And then she sent the cutest little gift for you when you were born. And you never met her. And I never saw her again. But she became famous!
M: Uh-huh, yeah. V.I. Warshawsky, starring Kathleen Turner.
H: Oh, that’s a movie.
M: Uh-huh. Which I didn’t see; did you see it?
H: I think I did see it.
M: Yeah. Do you still read the New York Times Book Review?
H: Yes.
M: And what’s the vibe you get from that? How are authors doing these days?
H: What I try to do; is when there’s a really good book review, I try to write down the name of the book and order it at the library, put it on reserve at the library. I’m so bad at this; you know? So last week, or something, I did, a couple of books, three books, they all came in at the same time. They totalled 1,500 pages. But, I finished two of them! And we’re gonna go for the third—well, I’m in the middle of the third. So .. yes, I love the New York Times. It’s really good on introducing new books. But I never know which one is the one I want to read. I mean, I have to go on the assumption that, you know, it’s good.
M: But they’re new—this way, it keeps you reading new books. As opposed to, classics all the time.
H: I just read this book, what’s his name, Verghese is his last name. But it’s called The Covenant of Water. It was 700 pages long. It was absolutely one of the most wonderful things I’ve read in the last year. It’s all about India, about a family in India. So I really like that; I like the idea of a saga from one generation to the next generation to the next generation, to see the family evolve.
M: I tend to think that like, you know, wherever we get our news, it tends to be a lot of doom and gloom. But I wonder if fiction — would you say your fiction … the books that are coming out, like, that you read … give you more hopeful? Can they be more hopeful? Or are they—Do they tend to be more hopeful? Or, no, not so much.
H: Well I think that The Covenant of Water is more hopeful. I do. It’s not always the case. I’m now reading a book called, Paragon? Is that the name of it? But it’s all about the Isreali-Palestinean war. And it’s—so far, it’s absolutely beautiful; it’s written like poetry. It’s one of the most depressing things I’ve ever read.
M: Beautiful and depressing, interesting. What is your experience with Kindles and audio books?
H: I’ve never done an audio book, and the reason for that is that I’m just not in one place long enough to do it. I mean, I could do it in here, I guess. I don’t know how audio—you have to have a disc, right?
M: We’ll put it in your little ear buds. We’ll get it streaming. We can fix that for you, we can try to do this.
H: So I mean, I never do an audiobook. I used to use Kindle occasionally when I went away. I used to use Kindle when I went away. Because I didn’t have to carry books with me; I would carry … But something happened and my Kindle isn’t working now, so until I get it working again … I prefer to sit with a book. I really do. But that’s ‘cause I’m old and it’s what I’m used to.
M: You love book stores.
H: I love book stores.
M: And libraries.
H: Yeah. Libraries—You know I want to put in a pitch. I think libraries are the most wonderful thing that were ever invented. I guess it was Ben Franklin, but I’m not sure. The idea, in this country, that you go into a library, you go into a place—and you get a book for free for two or three weeks. I mean, just think of it! Is there anything in this whole world that is like that? We have to be careful that they don’t try to privatize the way they privatize everything else.
M: (Laughs) While you’re making your cases, what’s going on with banned books?
H: Well, you could probably tell me what’s going on with banned books.
M: (Laughs) No!
H: It’s hard as a librarian; we used to have this thing called Banned Book Week in the fall, I think. And we would put out all the banned books that we had in the library, so kids could see them and take them out. We had things like To Kill A Mockingbird was on that list. James Baldwin was definitely on that list; but that’s a little ahead of our kids in eighth grade. What else is on the list?
M: Well .. You know, I’m writing this book, it’s called How to Bomb A Building. Teaching children how to bomb buildings, what do you think about it? It’ll probably get on the list, is that—
H: Are you asking me what I think of it? You can’t think of anything else to —
M: Another way of asking the question is: Could you ever see a case to ban a book?
H: I probably could.
M: And yet you would say it’s overdone. There are … the idea with banned books is that, people overdo it.
H: Well, last week I believe, our ex-president made a little speech, about how these foreigners are running into the country, ruining our blood type, making us weaker people, you know, by just being here with us, maybe even inter-marrying, they’re making us a weaker people. And I’m Jewish, and that’s what they used to say about the Jews, they were making these people weaker. So I think it’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard; if we’re gonna ban something, let’s ban him!
M: (Laughs) What a … I wasn’t ready for that topic switch, from banning books to banning people!
H: You think that’s so far away? You think that’s so different?
M: Well, I’'ve never heard of banning people. That’s not on anyone’s radar that I’m familiar with. I guess it would be a deportation list, or something. Okay, well umm …
H: You gave me the mic, buster! I wasn’t born with a mic in my mouth!
M: (Laughs) Well they’re going to ban our podcast pretty soon, because of the wild ideas we’re throwing forth. But no, I appreciate the sentiment, and …
H: I appreciate your questions. And your willingness to deal with them.
M: Well, no, I thought it would be fun to talk books with you, because, because, well I’m glad that I have a love of reading, and I think that’s, that you inculcated that in me. And umm … I find—
H: I forgot to mention a book! When I was in high school, I read The Fountainhead, by Ayn Rand. And like every 16-year-old at the time, I fell in love with Howard Roark. He destroyed a building! What an idiot—I mean, she has the most ridiculous ideas I’ve ever heard, but I just love that book. And the message there is, read everything!
M: Right on. So, yeah, it’s rare that somebody’s going to write a book like I hypothetically imagined; like, how to build a bomb and be a terrorist or something like that. For the most part, ideas should … so Free Speech! Free speech is an important value, we would say. And the First Amendment is a good amendment; let’s keep it. And writing is a wonderful activity where people are able to put these thoughts down on paper, and …
H: Keep writing.
M: They should keep writing. So …
H: So should you.
M: Well I’ve got some notes here; you’ve given me some good ideas. I’ll try to find a lot of these books and link ‘em; I’ll do a little transcript-write-up of some of what we talked about. And we’ll keep the discussion going; maybe we can read The Brothers Karamazov together.
H: Oh yeah, I think it’s 500 pages …
M: If some of the people watching want to join us; that’d be great, hit the Like and Subscribe button. Thanks a lot, mom, for coming on the podcast.
H: Thank you.
M: Love you.
H: You’re a good interviewer. Love you.
M: Okay, thanks for watching. Bye.