Episode 11 (Man-to-Men Ep. 5): Justin Cimino
The Man-to-Men weekend's weekend manager speaks about his weekend and his life
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D: Ok, hey, Justin, how’s it going? Welcome! So, tell me … You had a … You were telling me you had a situation with a transgender participant at the Man-to-Men Weekend.
JC: (Laughs) Helluva way to start an interview, Mr. Dittmer. You know it wasn’t really a situation! What it was, was … We had a question brought to us, and the question was: If a person was transgender male, are they welcome to come to the Weekend? So the weekend leaders and I got together, we discussed it. And the answer we came up with is, we’re not going to be checking pants at the door! So (if) a participant is a man, they’re a man. They want to come to the Weekend, and they’re a man, they’re welcome! There’s a cabin for ‘em, there’s a bathroom for ‘em, and that’s that! Now, if a transgender person wants to come to the Weekend and needs special, you know, housing, and bathrooms and … Then it’s something else. Right? But, if your’e a man, you’re a man. And it’s not for, you know, DeArmon or Carstens or myself as the weekend manager to decide, you’re a man or you’re not a man, and that’s way beyond us. And, we welcome men! Right? Straight men, gay men, fat men, skinny men, old men. Right? It doesn’t matter. It’s about uniting the men.
MD: So that’s like … I feel like it’s … It was out there; it’s a weird interview-starter. But, it’s a … I like how you tie it back to … It seems like a good example of how like, we come to the Weekend, maybe, with, whatever these … whatever our issues are. … But there’s, I mean … Is that sort of the discipline you have to have as … running a weekend is: How do I take whatever’s coming, and make it into something that unites the men?
JC: You know, something from my first weekend that I attended, was June of ‘21, and it was the Man-to-Men Weekend. And Mr. Carstens brought to us: never again will you have a problem in your life. Only situations. And it (claps) … It hit! Right? It’s like, no more problems! They’re not for the men. Men take what’s coming at ‘em. Assess, figure out what’s going on. If they have the discipline to like, chill back, and like figure out, okay, what’s the best action I can take here? And, you know, tying it to the other weekend, the Sterling Men’s Weekend. Barrier, discover … dissolve! Right? And it’s no big deal.
MD: Right. The purpose of the Sterling Men’s Weekend is to …
JC: … Engage in the process of locating the source of your power, and discover and dissolve the barriers between you and manifesting that power, so that you experience total freedom as only a man can, and with that freedom, be the man you always wanted to be.
MD: Be the man you always wanted to be. Yeah.
JC: Right? And then tie it in to the Man-to-Men purpose: To unite the men through initiation, so the responsibility men have for each other is realized. And I think that’s where a lot of men have like, gotten lost. Is that, we’re in this together, and together we’re better.
MD: I wonder, like … Well that, no … that seems … I believe that! But what does that mean? It’s so easy for some of our language to be … To … You know how it is, if you’re praying? And you say a prayer, but you’ve said it a hundred times, you lose connection to it? But, you feel connected to it?
JC: I do. Right? And or me, it’s a purpose in my life. And it’s something I go after. You know, my friend Mr. Little brought it a really good way. And he said, think of it as like a teepee. Right? All the poles come up and connect, and if you focus on the tip of the teepee, you know where you’re going. Right? And it’s the same way with my purpose, right? I have a direction, I know where I’m going. If I just stick with that purpose, I have a direction, right? And … What it means to me, for the men getting together is: There’s a lot of men that suffer from depression, and all kinds of different mental ailments, and addiction, and everything else. In my opinion, it’s because they’re alone, and they isolate, and they don’t have someone that can have their front, right? And their back.
MD: Backing up to the teepee is: Every man might have a different purpose, they’re all going at different angles, but they lean up against each other, and they can sort of, support one another?
JC: You know, I wouldn’t say that the men have different purposes. I just think they have a different way of getting to the purpose, right? And then the tip, I would consider that to be the purpose, and we’re all aiming for the same thing. We’re all going to the same spot, if we’re aligned with the purpose.
MD: Yeah, yeah. And then you also mentioned, you were talking about the dangers of isolating. And I wonder, like, how did you learn that—the importance of not isolating. I mean, like, was there a — has that hit home to you. Do you kind of have a — I can’t picture you isolating.
JC: It’s not me! I’m not an isolator. I love being around people, and I love — I’m kind of a chameleon, I can fit in with this crowd or that crowd, and just make the best of it. But, why I talk about it is because I’ve seen too many of, men my age and men younger, like, suffer and die because they’re alone. And, I can’t tell you how many men I’ve lost in my life, because they don’t know how to ask — not ask. They can’t accept that there’s a community out there for them, and that they don’t have to be alone. Right?
MD: I mean, I kind of want to call my own bullshit. Like, I can see you isolating, like, everybody … But I guess I was just … I was fishing around for, like, do you have a time in your life when you were isolating, that kind of thing? But I understand that like, it’s more something that you’ve seen with other people. But I guess, what’s interesting: Another thing that pops into my head is that, when we … if we’re together, then we might have a purpose—we might work to have a purpose that is one purpose. Whereas if I’m isolating, I might … my purpose might just be to aggrandize myself. Or at least, that might be my experience, as far as like, where my head goes. Or where my head would be when I isolate.
JC: Sure. Yeah. I don’t know. (Laughs)
MD: Do you find that your purpose … Because, we just sort of spoke out the purposes of these weekends. Is like, being purpose-driven a new thing, or it just comes naturally? What’s your sense of that, in your life?
JC: You know, I would say that … it comes naturally, right? It’s become more clear since I did my men’s weekend. But, even before that, I was involved in other organizations where, together we’re better, right? Whether it be youth sports, or recovery rooms, or, you know … We’re sitting in the Rip City Rider clubhouse right now, right? And there’s about 90 members, men and women. And our purpose is to support local 501 c3s, and to ride motorcycles and have fun. You know, there’s plaques all over this room. Different motorcycles we’ve given away. The Poly Klaas Foundation in Sonoma County, we’ve given over $100,000 to. That’s what I mean about being a chameleon is like, I’m part of a motorcycle club, I’m part of Alcoholics Anonymous, I’m part of the Man-to-Men Weekend, I’m part of Qun Men’s Division. And it’s like, I have all these people in my life, which helps me move up the chart.
MD: And that’s like, having a higher purpose affects more people.
JC: That’s right.
MD: What’s the Polly Klaas Foundation?
JC: So Polly Klaas was a little girl in Petaluma, CA. And I believe it was 1995, and a predator, Richard Allen Davis, who’s on Death Row still, snuck into her room, and stole her, and ended up killing her. And, so what the Polly Klaas foundation does now, is … I think it’s over 10,000 kids that they’ve helped now. What they do is, they go into local schools, they talk to kids about online safety. How to be safe online, not to get lured into bad situations. Yeah, so. I think they go to elementary schools, middle schools, high schools. And, it’s here in Sonoma County, so …
MD: Awesome. Backing up again; so we talked about … you mentioned there’s no problems, there’s situations, and how that hit you at the Weekend, and how that kind of helped you guys. It’s a guiding thing that helps, you know … Take situations that come into the Weekend and help direct men toward, you know … uniting with their fellow men. Can you give other examples of like, the type of thing that goes on at the Weekend. The type of transformation that you might have seen or experienced?
JC: I’ve seen a lot of things happen at the Weekend, right? June ‘21 was the first Man-to-Men Weekend, right? And, I knew I was going, and I enrolled my brother, Turner, to come, and —
MD: Mr. Jeffrey Turner
JC: And, we’re 10 years apart. And before the Man-to-Men Weekend, Turner was a hermit. You know? He stayed at home, he was on his computer, playing his games, with his two or three friends that he had. He worked, and that was about it. He went to his weekend, he went through his Point Program, and like — blossomed! Out of his shell, out there slayin’ it! You know, he had a lot of fun for a while and … It broke him free of whatever that was holdin’ him back. And he was having a lot of fun with ladies, and going out, and going dancing. And like, I’m seeing a kid, who is like a son to me. He’s my little brother, we’re 10 years apart, and I’ve always looked after him. To watch him blossom after going to his men’s weekend, and go out and have fun, and have a social life. To watch what it’s done with his life? You know, he’s been in relationship with his girlfriend, I believe two years now, two-and-a-half years, something like that. So, you know. June of ‘21, kids a hermit. October of ‘21, you know, he’s had some fun, and he met his girl, and she’s a lovely lady, and they’ve been together since. And, you know, they’re having fun, and we’ll see what happens with that relationship but … It’s huge, to see somebody that was in one spot, and … doing a lot! Mr. Adams, Hunter — same thing. Young man, son of Gary, right? At home, bla bla bla. He goes through his weekend, same thing. Blossoms with the ladies; out having fun. Kid got his motorcycle license, got a motrocycle. Decided he waqnted to do something with his life, went and got a Class A drivers’ license. Is out making good money now! And, driving a big rig truck, right? Result of the men’s weekend, like holy shit! You know? So, young men — I’ve also seen some elder men that … You know, going through a divorce, was a little lost, and … he got away from the men. And, he came back, and the man I’m thinking of, joined us at a Division-Away, a camping trip. And, that was in April of ‘22, and in June 2023 he did his Man-to-Men Weekend. You know, he was a Sterling Men’s graduate from 1999, and was part of a men’s division for a long time, and then got away from it. You know, he came back kinda broken, and then, it snapped when he got back with the men. He’s a good man. So …
MD: With like say, your brother, or maybe some of the other men you spoke about, but maybe just your brother, to focus on one: Do you have a sense—Have you talked to him or, would you have a guess or a sense of like: Was it also for him, the situation idea? Or was there anything else that really like … you think that … Can you say what it was that happened for him? I mean I guess, only he could potentially. But, care to speculate?
JC: You know what? I’d have to ask him. I don’t want to put words in a man’s mouth. But I know, watching it from the outside in, I’m not the only one that’s noticed it. Right?
MD: What about for yourself? You mentioned also, you said, following up. You said that you wanted to do the … You knew you were going to go. How did you know that you were gonna go? It was the first — you know, brand new thing. Why would anybody? I think at the first — I think I was there, too. I think, we were asked, very quickly, like, ‘What the hell are you guys doing here? You paid $500! What the hell did you do that for?’ What does that look like — looking back, what were you doing?
JC: So, Mr. DeArmon was my sponsor to the Weekend—both weekends. And I love DeArmon. I love DeArmon really deeply. I heard that him and Mr. Carstens were startin’ a weekend. I was kind of sitting back waiting for the invitation, right? And then finally I’m like … he brought it up to me. He’s like, 'You going to the Weekend?’ I’m like, ‘Of course I am!’ So, why? Because I trust and look up to DeArmon, my sponsor. It wasn’t a question for me; as soon as registration opened, I was signed up.
MD: How did you guys know each other?
JC: We know each other from Alcoholics Anonymous. There goes your anonymity, Mr. DeArmon! (Laughs)
MD: I meant to ask you about that before, like … how did you wanna … And then I was like …
JC: I’m proud of being an alcoholic. Right? And, my life today because of Alcoholics Anonymous is amazing. Right? I got sober August 23 in 2013. And my life from then, to now, is amazing. And it’s due to Alcoholics Anonymous, it’s due to the men. But first and foremost, it’s due to God.
MD: Were you religious before you did AA? You mentioned ‘due to God’ — did the spiritual part of AA attract you from the beginning?
JC: I’ve never had a God issue, right? Like, I know a lot of people in AA shy away from the word ‘God’ and they have a hard time with it. Not for me. Right? You know, for me it’s like, why would you be afraid of God? He’s loving and caring and all-knowing and like powerful, and like, I don’t have to be in control. For a selfish, self-centered alcoholic, for myself, letting go of that stuff, and I’m not good at letting go, I’m a control freak. And like, just knowing and going to the Third Step prayer of like, I don’t have to have this, I can give it to God, is like … ahh!
MD: I have a similar kind of outlook; I mean, I also—Although, I would say, it took me a little longer … There was a time when I first walked into the rooms of … the 12-step rooms … I saw God on the wall and I was like — Well, I don’t know about that … Well, I have negative associations of people … But then a few years later, I’d read uhh … Somebody recommended I read Echart Tolle, and I had. And I was very willing, by that time … And then for me — One way I’d describe it is having a positive outlook. Like, if the purpose … if the world is created by somebody … Or if I can sort of sit back and realize, like: The world’s been running, without my doing all this much to hold it together … And if I can put some trust in the fact that whatever, created and maintained, in a way, like, the world … It’s just having a positive outlook. As opposed to: Everything’s going wrong! We’re all gonna die!
JC: (Laughingly) The sky is falling.
MD: Yeah, yeah. So … I mean that’s a little bit … But one other question that maybe follows from that: What do you think about the weekends’ … spirituality, vis-a-vis the weekends. Because, in a way they’re very … Like, people have asked me, are they … is this religious? I’m like, no it’s not religious. So like, but … It’s interesting … I think it’s kind of spiritual, but we’re not really talking about God, typically, at a weekend event.
JC: No, it’s not a religious event. But I think there’s a spirit to it.
MD: Certainly, yeah.
JC: Right? And, you know, we joke about it, but Mitchell Carstens comes to the Man-to-Men Weekend, and we call him the manager of the spirit of the Weekend. There’s something very magical about that kid. Actually he’s not a kid, about that man. And, you know, there’s something happening. I’ll give you an example. September of ‘23, we put on the last Man-to-Men Weekend. And, DeArmon calls me in the morning, he goes: ‘It came to me.’ I go, ‘What’s that?’ He goes, ‘We need to do something to unify the production team.’ I’m like, ‘Okay.’ He goes, ‘You don’t have to answer me right now, but we’ve got to do something.’ Alright. Not even 10 minutes later, Dittmer, Mr. Lichau calls me, he goes: ‘Cimino, I got an idea; I don’t want to make shit up without letting you know. But here’s my idea! I’m gonna bring my tub for my ice bath. Bring some ice, and we’ll have the production team get in the ice bath.’ And I started laughing, and I go, ‘Ho ho! What’s going on here?’ Right? So I call DeArmon back, I said: ‘Can’t tell you what it is—but I figured it out! We’re unifying, one way or another.’ And everybody … every man on the production team got up on Saturday morning at 6 a.m., and jumped in an ice bath. Some of us stayed in a minute; some of us stayed in three minutes. It was definitely something I’ll never forget.
MD: Unifying, for sure and … We talk about the masculine spirit a lot. We see it in the fire; you know like, there’s the fire, and the spirit … It’s been going for a long time without us, and then we get to … I mean, it’s just cool to talk about, in a way, yeah.
JC: Maybe it’s coincidence, maybe it’s a spirit working, to make something happen. I’m not gonna get in the way of it; try to figure it out. But DeArmon calls, Lichau calls, we go with it. Carstens talks about it: When the spirit comes in, don’t try to get in its way! Right?
MD: Yeah. Yeah, so, you did your weekend in 2021 of June. After — Since then, though … Were you PTM, were you production team manager of the next weekend?
JC: I was.
MD: So, yeah … what has that been like? Being part of production. I guess, that lasted for about three weekends where you were just, PTM-ing. Two or three?
JC: Right. So … Let’s see here. Went to the June ‘21 Weekend, and left the Weekend knowing I wanted more. Byrd came out, and talked about Qun Men’s Division, and talked about a “point program.”
MD: That’s Brandon Byrd, a man who was on production at that first weekend.
JC: That’s correct. At the time he was the Division Coordinator for Qun Men’s Division. And he said, ‘We’ve got something for you men!’ The Weekend’s only a short three days. But, we’ve got a seven-week program for you. And I came out, and Turner and myself and Adams and Adams and, you know, Gross and Payne, and Ignacio Perez, and Buddy Martin … We all came out and we did our point program together and it’s something you never forget. You know, I’m probably dropping out a couple of — Mr. Harrington! Sorry, Kev. (Laughs) You know what I mean? But so, got through the point program, and I knew that I wanted to go back to the Weekend, and I talked to DeArmon, and I told him, ‘I want to be, you know, one of those black shirts.’ Right? Like the men that were, running the Weekend, and taking care of everything. I didn’t realize at the time it was called ‘production.’ And they said, ‘Alright, you can be on production.’ And DeArmon and Carstens talked. We were out on Mr. Alan Hill’s house for a division meeting. And, Carstens and I had a conversation, and I told ‘em I want to be part of production. And he goes, ‘Good, you’re gonna be the production team manager.’ And I had no idea what that mean (laughs). And, you know, Mr. Carstens has given me a million dollars of lessons, shoved up my ass a nickel at a time. And, so yeah, November ‘21 I had PTM’ed. April ‘22, and August’ 22, I believe. No — August ‘22, Mr. Yankee took over. And then, he was PTM for a couple weekends. And then we’ve been searching for a new PTM, and I’ve kind of been in between weekend manager and production team manager for the last couple weekends.
MD: Wait, and so, weekend manager is … pretty … were DeArmon and Carstens basically doing the weekend manager role … the first few weekends?
JC: They were. The way the chain of command worked prior to me being put up to the weekend manager is, DeArmon was techincally weekend leader, and below him was Mr. Carstens as the weekend manager. However, Carstens was co-facilitating the Weekend, right? And then below that, PTM. So yeah, Carstens and DeArmon were running the show.
MD: Yeah. And … I get … I’m thinking, this might sound, to people who aren’t familiar, this is a lot of, you know, whatever. But ‘chain of command’ is probably a word that, people know what that means. And then you mentioned that … having lessons shoved up your ass a nickel at a time. And I was thinking, that’s sort of like … Maybe that’s just how men unify; we like chains of command … We like knowing our role, or sort of a way of, sort of organi— is that what you’ve found? That you naturally fit into chains of command, or it sort of comes naturally to you?
JC: It does. And I try to figure out how to get to the top of that chain. Right? (Laughs) And you know, the lessons I learned is, don’t be selfish. Right? It’s easy for me to just go and make the nametags, and get ‘em done, and bla bla bla. But if I have ten men on my team below — not below. Ten men that are serving with me, and want something to do, but can’t do anything without being, you know, this is what I need. If I’m taking care of those tasks, I’m not being fair to the ten men that are volunteering and I’m not giving them the maximum benefit of volunteering.
MD: Yeah. That’s an interesting, like … kind of the way that works, is the way we are … Like, yeah, we like … We’re not, we don’t … If we’re all in on the purpose, we don’t tend to be as lazy. Like, we tend to be lazy in a lot of contexts, but if I’m on a production team … Nobody on a production — Like, I’ve almost never seen that on a production team where guys are … Well, maybe I have. I don’t know.
JC: Yeah. If you have the right team behind you, then it’s no problem, right? Yeah. And it needs to be led!
MD: Yeah. Yeah, I mean … And I guess that is a type of unselfishness you can practice of just, …. To lead is almost like kind of a radical unselfishness is required. Like … As a lazy person, I … I don’t know, or I don’t think of a lot of people, every day. But if I’m leading, they’re bumping right into me; I kind of can’t help … It pushes my field of view out ….
JC: Yeah, yeah. And, at the same time, as a good leader, you can’t expect what you don’t inspect. Right? And, you know, that one’s bitten me in the rear end a few times, too. You know, just thinking something was done, and not actually putting my eyes on it, of like, yes, this is a way above me the weekend leaders are gonna want it. Right? Chairs set up, and flip charts on the easels, and purpose signs set up. Everything straight, square. We want to produce … Production team’s purpose is to produce all physical aspects of the Weekend, so that the men get the best bang for their buck. And if we’re doing a good job, then we’re not being noticed, right? Serving invisibly.
MD: I mean, I’m thinking about like, there’s love in the setting up of nametags. ‘Cause I’ve heard, Carstens talk about like, you’re somebody that cares about men a lot. And maybe he’s just saying that, because like, because you work hard! I don’t know.
JC: Yeah. I care. Right? I don’t want to see anybody suffer. And there’s a lot of men that are suffering. You know … It hurts, because you find a lot of relief, at the weekends. Right? I found a lot of relief at the weekends, I got to work some of my personal stuff out at the weekends, and I get to sit back as a production member and watch the men, you know, that moment that it clicks for ‘em, and they understand why they’re there. And then, to see the burdens shake off of ‘em, it’s pretty magical.
MD: Yeah. The whole vibe of the place is … radically, you notice it toward the end of the Weekend, or after certain things.
JC: Right. And you know … It sucks when you see a man get to his weekend, and then he leaves. Right? ‘Cause, we’re going somewhere, right? There’s a purpose of everything that leads up to the end of the Weekend on Sunday. And it’s like, just, you already paid the money, you’re already there. Stick it out! Don’t leave! You’re selling yourself short if you leave, and it’s like, ‘Dammit!’ And … You know, and DeArmon and Carstens … It kills all three of us when we see a man leave. We can’t figure it out. Why? Right? That shame and that guilt, and that, you know. Whatever they got going down deep inside them, that’s starting to bubble up. And they can’t handle it, so they bounce. And it’s like, let it bubble up, ‘cause we’re gonna get rid of it. At least, figure out something to do with it.
MD: Phew
JC: Yeah, it’s deep!
MD: And … How … I mean, the conversations you three must have like, planning a weekend, and what-not. I mean, that must be pretty deep, I would think.
JC: It is. (Laughs) And, you know, I’m … I’m privileged to be part of the circle, right? Because Mr. DeArmon and Mr. Carstens have been doing this for decades. I have decades to grow before I could even consider myself on that level, right? Something I aspire for, absolutely. But just to be part of the conversation: it’s pretty humbling and pretty … awesome, right? And, I get ahead of myself and I think that I know best, and when I sit and get quiet with myself and do my prayer and meditation — I need to just shut the fuck up and listen.
MD: Although, I would bet they would be disappointed if you did shut the fuck up. You know what I mean?
JC: Eh, sometimes! (Laughs) Me and Scott have … eh! A couple times, I needed to.
MD: I know that, like, yeah. They don’t want, necessarily want … they don’t want us to be, at least, in my experience, like a fly on the wall or somebody who just sit — They don’t want yes-men. You know what I mean?
JC: No, no! Absolutely not, it’s not that either. But there’s a time to express, you know, my point. And there’s a time to follow … the chain-of-command. Right? And, it is what it is, and I’m learning. And I make mistakes, and I get out of line. And I get to clean it up.
MD: So you’ve been to all the weekends. There’ve been … eight? Is this gonna be the eighth?
JC: This’ll be the eighth, coming up March 15, yeah. So yeah, I’ve been to every one!
MD: So what’s the … Give me the … any high—Any favor—I mean, your first was probably most memorable in a way. But anything else, the way it’s changed for you, or how it’s evolved?
JC: I’ve got my favorite parts of every weekend. And I have weekends where I felt like I let the men down because of the job that I did as production team manager, or the weekend manager. It’s … There’s a lot that goes into it, there’s a lot during the Weekend. And then, after a Weekend, it takes a couple of weeks, to just … And, we don’t talk for a couple weeks after the Weekend about the Weekend. Right? It just … A lot of shit goes on, and it needs to just bubble down and let it die off. Because, it’s a big energy mass, and it skyrockets, and then it’s a big comedown, right? You know, and, one thing I’m proud of is, I’ve sponsored a man to every weekend. Right? And, there’s several men, I think I’m up to 30, maybe 40, I don’t know. Men that I’ve put into the weekends—both weekends. And, to watch them go through a weekend, and to see the stuff happening for them, it’s pretty amazing. And then, those men to bring men to the Weekend. Right? ‘Cause I have a man that’s sponsored that’s sponsored that’s sponsored now. So, it’s like, that’s pretty cool! Right? And, you know to see ‘em come back and join the point programs in the divisions, and to get to be part of you know, circling up weekly with some of those men, or just seeing ‘em at division meetings. Or, you know, some of the men, I’ve got to point, be their point man, and take ‘em through the point program. And just, you know, be the D.C. for ‘em, and enrollment manager. It’s a lot. It’s cool, though.
MD: Yeah. How was your … You know, you had mentioned the Sterling Men’s Weekend and a lot of the … all the, like the point program that you mentioned, and you mentioned Brendan Bryd, who was the D.C. of Qun Men’s Division … All that is kind of like … Sterling Men’s Weekend … You know. It’s the. … it’s attached to the Sterling Men’s…
JC: It’s legacy!
MD: Yeah, the division was created as a division of graduates of the Sterling Men’s Weekend, and the point program was from the Sterling Men’s Division. So a lot of this … So the Sterling Men’s Weekend started in like 1980 or ‘79 or something like that.
JC: ‘81 I believe it was. Women’s Weekend.
MD: Women’s Weekend ‘79, Men’s Weekend ‘81.
JC: Something like that, yeah.
MD: Something like that. We would consult textbooks but they try not to write any of them; just keep it all oral legacy. … So what are some of your thoughts about just having … You did the Sterling Men’s Weekend shortly after you did …
JC: Sure! Yeah, it was shut down because of Covid, and the pandemic. And, that’s how Man-to-Men started, right? There was no more Sterling Men’s Weekend because it was on hold because of Covid. And, according to Carstens, the spirit came to him. And, was like, men are being warehoused, there’s nowhere to send ‘em to be initiated, and it’s time! So he called up DeArmon, and told him it’s time, and that was, I think it was May of ‘20, something like that. And then, June of ‘21, the Weekend was on. And, March ‘22 is when I did my Sterling Men’s Weekend, and that was the first weekend after Covid. And, most of the men—all the men except for one that I went to the point program with, did the Sterling Weekend with me. So we’ve gone through Man-to-Men, went through the point program, we’re circling up weekly as a team, and we all went to Sterling together. And it was an amazing—it was an amazing time. And you served on production for my weekend. Right? And so did Daher, and Mr. Corlett, and Mr. Byrd, and a lot of the men who were part of Qun. And, it was … something in your life you’ll never forget.
MD: And then I guess … The only … it gives us something to do in terms of like, juggling, like that we have, oh, there’s two weekends going on. And like, so you’re enrolling … You ask, some men, say, ‘What weekend should I go to?’ And you’re like … ‘Well, how much money do you have?’
JC: (Laughs) Well, and … You talk to different men, they have different opinions, right? My opinion, personally, for me sponsoring men, is that it’s up to the man that I’m sponsoring. Both weekends are awesome, you’re going to get a ton of value out of both, and figuring out where that man is in his life; me being the sponsor, taking the responsibility for leading this man down that path, like … It depends on the man. Right? You know, I’ve talked to men that say, you need to go to Man-to-Men first, and then Sterling after. And that was my experience, and it was fabulous, right? And then there’s men like you, that Man-to-men didn’t exist, and Sterling Men’s Weekend was first, and then they went and did Man-to-Men, and it was fantastic. So I don’t think there’s a right answer. I think the right answer is, if you’re sponsoring a man, you’d better take responsibility for that.
MD: Have you — So, sponsoring … So sponsoring is an interesting word … Because it means like, you know … it comes from AA … or there’s AA sponsorship—I don’t know if it comes from AA. But there’s AA sponsorship where somebody takes you through the 12 steps, and … But then sponsoring to a weekend means that person writes on your form, like, signs your form, and … But what does that mean to you, to be like … You’ve talked a little bit about it, but like …. There’s responsibility in it I guess …
JC: There should be! Right? And it shouldn’t just be, ‘I’ve got a man!’ It should be, I’m leading a man to a purpose. Right? And what it means to me is, I’m gonna make sure that man has everything to get to and through his weekends. But, you know, sponsorship also means that, you know, if I hold an event, and I’m looking for money, somebody, a business, will bring money to give to me and they’re sponsoring the event, right? So it’s a lot of different kinds of sponsorship. In regards to the men’s weekends, you know, if I’m asking a man to trust me, and go to his weekend because, you know … there’s more confidentia—There’s nothing confidential about the Man-to-Men Weekend, and that’s from the weekend leaders. We’ll tell you everything. The Sterling Men’s Weekend is quite the opposite. And really, you do a dis-justice if you talk about what happens at the weekends with any man, for either weekend. Right? I ask a man, why would you go to a weekend? Well, I have a hard time with my father. I don’t have my kids. I’m going through divorce. I love being around men. Right? There’s all kinds of reasons. So it’s like—not why wouldn’t you? Why would you? Right? Sterling Men’s Weekend, $700, plus you’ve got to pay for your food and your lodging. Man-to-Men Weekend, $500, you get your food and lodging included. But, 500 or 700, that’s a lot of money! Right? And, you know, the economy’s not the best. And it’s a lot to ask somebody, to, you know, trust them, and say, ‘You’re gonna get your money’s worth.’ I’ve ... At the end of the Man-to-Men weekends, I’ve gone up and said my piece to the men and said, ‘Anybody want their money back?’ And I’ve done it more than once, and I haven’t had somebody say, ‘Yeah, I’ll take my money back.’ ‘Cause I’d give it to ‘em. I’d absolutely give it to ‘em.
MD: Yeah … So it’s kind of … So that sponsorship, the trust … Well there’s the trust … I guess, you’re saying this man is ready for the Weekend. And then you’re also saying, you’re standing by the Weekend, that the Weekend is ready for the man. The man has to trust you about the Weekend. But then the weekend leaders have to trust you about the men that you bring. It’s almost like a match-making, I guess.
JC: It is. Right? And, you know … Especially new men in recovery, it’s probably not the best time. Right? And, I’ve made the mistake. I’ve sent a man that was struggling with addiction, and in and out, in and out. And, I haven’t had a man that was a newcomer make it through a weekend. Right? So, I won’t do it again. Because, I failed. I failed as a sponsor, to know that it was time for that man to go through that initiation. And it hurts. It hurt … It’s not a good feeling.
MD: You mentioned initiation; did you, were you familiar with, or … Can you say anything about being initiated, as an aspect of the whole thing? … There was a little beep over there, that’s … If anybody, whatever (laughs)
JC: That’s alright. Screenaholics, for ya. What do you expect?
MD: Like and subscribe.
JC: You know what? I’m not talk about initiation. Yeah. You know, it’s … its a part of the Weekend that I’m not gonna rob from the people listening.
MD: Right on. It’s mysterious.
JC: Sure! Yeah. And, it’s to go through something, right? And to get to the other side. Right? So you go into something, not knowing, and you come out the other side, you’re initiated. You know, and I talked to a man that’s a Sterling men’s graduate. And, told him about the Man-to-Men Weekend. He’s like, ‘I’m already initiated. Why would I do that?’ It’s like, why would you limit yourself to one initiation? If you’re growing, or deepening yourself, then you should be constantly initiating to the next level. So …
MD: You mentioned, it being a disservice to … or disjustice, to tell a man anything about, like … even though the Man-to-Men Weekend is not confidential … maybe not, still not the best thing to be running one’s mouth about.
JC: No! They’re all different. Right? It’s what the men bring to the weekend leaders and the way the directions go. I can tell you this; I’ve been to every Man-to-Men, and not one has been the same! Right? It’s got a different spirit to it. It’s got a different flow. You know, we recently added some more columns to the registration form for Man-to-Men. You know, is the man married? Single? divorced? How many children? And, that information gets compiled for the weekend leaders so they know which cards to use. There’s a ton of cards that have never been used. Probably never will be. Right? ‘Cause, DeArmon or Carstens get up there and then a man asks a question, and then we’re going right, because that’s the way it’s going. Right? Where we thought we were going this way—this happens, this happens, and all of a sudden we’re over here. What’s important is where we’re going at the end. Right? And I haven’t seen it not go to that spot.
MD: Can you give an example of like … I’m not letting it … I’ m always. I’m learning that I rush things. Sometimes I don’t take things in enough; so should I probably miss something. Then I go back and watch it, and then I’m like, ‘Oh damn …’
JC: I wish I would have asked that!
MD: ‘He said that right there!’ And I … But that was neat when you talked about cards; I always … and it made me think about the production … Like I know, a little bit about what you’re talking about: Like, a lot of material gets put on cards, so the weekend facilitators can, sort of, be reminded of what they’re talkin’ about … And then I thought to myself about like how — That’s different than everyday life. Right, like … In everyday life, you’re not usually reading off of cards.
JC: Nobody’s feeding you the card!
MD: (Laughs) And that made me think — Well is that … What’s going on … Can you talk a little bit about, how much this stuff can affect everyday life! Or like … We’re talkin’ about the weekends, but like … What’s your everyday life like? And how’s … Is the Weekend related to it?
JC: Sure! Absolutely, right. And … You know, my everyday life is full and busy and great, and, you know. I’ve got a 10-month-old at home. Right? I’m married. And, we just bought our house a few months ago. And, we both work full-time jobs, and we’ve got this little one at home now. There’s 15 tenets that I got from doing my Man-to-men Weekend, and the Sterling Men’s Weekend that I try to live my life by, it’s the Code of Honor. Right? And if I’m living that Code of Honor, then I’m living my Men’s Weekend. And if I’m not, then I’m failing, right? ‘Cause I’ve been given a tool, of being the best man I can be. Right? That way I can take care of my child, and my wife, and my community. And my friends, right? Be the best employee I can be. Absolutely, I think about my weekend. And how the technology that I received at my weekends of … you know, it becomes part of everyday living. Problem, no problem, situations, never again will I have a problem. It gets ingrained after you live it. I’m not saying I live the perfect Weekend, and I’m the man I always wanted to be, and I’ve got a lot of work to do. But, the work that I’ve done over the last few years—absolutely, I see a difference.
MD: What do you do for a living?
JC: Sor, what I do for a living is … I grew up working for my grandpa, doing electrical work. Right? Worked in the field for a few years. Then I got moved inside the warehouse, electrical warehouse. And then I got moved inside the office, and took over for purchasing, and dispatch, and project management. I was with my grandpa for a long time, and then I moved to an electrical distributor, and moved to outside sales, so I was selling electrical products. November 1 of 2021, a few months after my weekend, I got a call from my current employer. And, the lady’s position that I took said, ‘Hey, my boss wants to hire you.’ And I was like, ‘I’m happy.’ I was at the distributor, life was good, I was making good money, bla bla bla. And I’m like, I’m good! And then she called me back, and she told me, he just wants to have a conversation with you, what’s it gonna hurt? So I called my current boss, Mike. And I talked to Mike, and he asked me if I’d be willing to come in and do an interview with him. It’s for Cal Lighting. And what Cal Lighting does is just lighting and lighting controls. And I think we represent 124 different lighting companies and we’re there representatives. And, I cover the North Bay, so north of San Francisco, all the way up to Crescent City. A little bit in Napa and Solano County as well. But everything in Sonoma, Marin, Mendocino all the way up to Humboldt. That’s all my territory. And, you know, I’m a manufacturer rep for lighting and lighting controls. And I sell that stuff.
MD: Wait sorry; did you say the East Bay at all or …
JC: No. Not East Bay. Not my territory.
MD: You have an office over there or something?
JC: Yeah, Cal Lighting’s office is in San Ramon. On Tuesdays, we’ll have project meetings, and that’s why I’ll be down there. When I first got hired, the lady that I took over for, she lived in Oakland, so she had a few customers that were in the East Bay that originally I had over there. But it didn’t make sense for me to drive to the East Bay for one or two customers when I have 70 customers in this neck of the woods.
MD: What would you say, like … So, in your work. I guess maybe, breaking it down — I hear you about, you know, the Men’s Weekend having a code of honor you’re living by and that’s a kind of thing, too … But could you like break down how it might be, how the Men’s Weekend might affect you in your work, your personal life, your relationship with your parents, I don’t know, stuff like that.
JC: Sure! Let me think about that for a sec. So for work, right? A ‘problem’ will get presented. A light fixture got damaged in shipping. Something’s getting delayed. Just whatever’s coming at you; there’s always bullshit coming at you, right? If I’m living my Men’s Weekend, then it’s just a situation. And, okay, so it got damaged; let’s make sure the trucking company, and the paperwork gets filed, and we’re taking care of it. We can’t use this fixture ‘cause it’s gonna take 16 weeks. Okay. Let’s find something else that’s gonna work. Right? And hopefully something that’s going to save the customer a little bit of money. Make us a little bit more, save them a little bit more. Everybody wins, right? That’s what I love about my work, is it’s always different. Right? No two days at my work are the same. You know, I wake up. First thing I do is check the email, see what’s going on. A lot of times, like … Next week I know I got appointments Monday in Santa Rosa. Tuesday morning I’m going to Napa. IN the afternoon I’m going to San Rafael Wednesday — Not San Rafael, San Ramon. Wednesday I’ll be in the San Rafael area. We got our Key One promo for Cooper Lighting going on. And, you know, I want to have the most promo sales. I’m competitive. And, I don’t want my co-workers that have different territories to not have promo sales. But I want to be the best. Right? And again, I’m working with people that have been there 20, 25 years. And, here I am two years in. I’m not going to be the best yet. I have something to work towards. But, I definitely give a shit. Right? And, you know, there’s different aspects of the Weekend that show up in your everyday life. And not overreacting, and knowing the difference between being emotional and being sensitive. Right? ‘Cause, I’m a pretty emotional guy. And, it doesn’t work to my favor. But if I’m being sensitive, then, I’m listening better. I’m hearing better. I’m taking the time to figure out, okay, what’s the best way to handle this? So, the difference between emotional and sensitive. All technology from the Weekend.
MD: How about at home?
JC: Ahh! They’re all crazy at home! Why do you think I need my men?! (Laughs) You know, it’s — I don’t know, Dittmer … it all just kind of …
MD: I figured it would be quite a bit that you’re using, though. Right?
JC: Absolutely. You know. Being a good listener. Right? I’m not good at that stuff. I don’t want to talk too much about it, because I don’t want to blow any confidentialities … There’s like six …
MD: There’s the Sterling weekend tools maybe are helping there. Which are confidential.
JC: Yeah. Knowing those, and why those exist, and stuff like that. You know, we talked about it a couple months ago. Like, hey, what are those … whatever they are. Like, okay, one is this. Two is this. Bla bla bla. It’s good stuff to know; because, it comes fast and hard at the Sterling Men’s Weekend, right? And, to try to retain all that, it’s a lot. But, if you’re living with your men, and circling up, there’s a way to bring the technology, without breaking the confidentiality of the weekends.
MD: Yeah, and I’ve heard people—Or I think I’ve heard Carstens say, the Man-to-Men Weekend is more for a man—it’s about men, and the Sterling Men’s Weekend is more about relationships. Like … And so that might be why …
JC: What’s that that Carstens says? The Man-to-Men Weekend we’re gonna talk about things that are important to men, that men talk about.
MD: … The way men talk about things that are important to them, or …
JC: There it is. You know? Also, Carstens and DeArmon say, we’re not going to tell you anything you don’t already know. You just might have forgotten. And, you know, I’ve come to find that true. It’s like, ‘ohh!’
MD: Well, there’s a real effort, it seems like, to make sure—like, to take into account all the men’s experiences. And to get some of — You know. Get everybody, like, we’re all on the same page. Let’s make sure we’re all on the same page. Yeah. Yeah, and … How about (chuckles) … how is it being a father so far?
JC: Ohh, it’s a dream come true. I’ve always wanted kids. You know, my — (sighs). Shortly after my June 21 Weekend, my … my wife lost a baby. Right? And, that hurt pretty bad. And … (deep breath) … I remember my wife asking why it didn’t bother me. Right? And, it still bothers me (fighting back tears). Right? But it was because I had the men, that I was able to stay, you know, steadfast for my wife. Right? And then, we struggled for a while, to get pregnant again, you know, for her to get pregnant again. You know, she told me she was pregnant. And I … I shielded myself for a few months, of like, ‘Oh, that’s great!’ You know. And then, March 6 he was born, 8:21 in the morning. Here’s a funny one. So 8:21, right? And, the kid was born. Little sucker stayed breach. We tried to do the inversion thing, and watching my wife’s stomach get wrenched on to flip him around, it didn’t work. It was horrible! You know. What did I do? I stayed steady. I walked outside. I called one of my men; I broke down. I sucked it up. Moved on, walked it off. Went back in there. Stayed good for my wife, right? So it was like, all these situations in my life, that are coming up, that are … booh! … I go to my men. Right? So I can be strong for my wife. And, anyways, so, 8:21, Little Justin comes out, C-section … And I’ve got my watch on, that’s set to Naval time. Which is to the second. And I looked at my clock. And one of the clocks in the room said 8:23. And another one said 8:19, and then the computer said 8:21, or something like that. They were all different. So they were talking about what time he was born. ‘Oh, it was 8:23.’ I said, ‘No. It was 8:21. (Laughs)’ And the nurse is like, ‘Well, t doesn’t matter.’ And I was like, ‘Oh, no, it matters. ‘Cause if you’re one second late, you’re late!’ And that definitely came from the Men’s Weekend. (Laughs) You know, being impeccable! So, on his birth certificate, it came from my watch. It was actually, it was actually a watch that I had borrowed from Mr. Kevin Harrington, right? And his watch, I didn’t even have to question it, it was set to that Naval time. And I ended up giving Harrington’s watch back. And I told him that’s a special watch; that’s the watch my son’s birth time is recorded from. You know, just being there, helping my wife, recovering from her C-section surgery, which is crazy … they cut through the gut and all the muscles, and you know, bla bla bla … Being prepared. Before that, I knew she was having a C-section, so I went out and bought her a bed for the downstairs. ‘Cause I didn’t want her climbing up the stairs. So like, there’s another aspect of a weekend, being prepared! Right? And just, helping her heal, and watching the baby. Little Justin is now crawling around. And he’s starting to stand up, and he’s laughing, and he’s got his own personality. And it’s just such a joy. You know, he has his own nursery and his own crib, but 5:30 in the morning, he usually wakes up, and he’ll come into bed with us, and like … The best part of my morning is that little guy shaking me. And it’s funny, I’ll go on these out-of-town trips with the men, or whatever is going on. My wife will tell me, that baby’s looking for ya, like, where you at? … And we’ll FaceTime and all that stuff. You know, it’s amazing being a father. And, it changes everything. Right? Knowing that … It’s kind of like sponsorship; I’m responsible for this little life, now. Right? You know? It’s my job as a father, to help that young man become a man that has integrity and morals, and principals, and hopefully a connection with the spiritual. And like, it’s my job with my wife to make sure that that happens, right? And then for him to break off and go do his own thing, and, you know, all that. It’s said in the Man-to-Men, from the first Weekend in the video, you know, a father’s job is to raise a child so he leaves us, you know. And how painful is that? I don’t know. I know I got like at least 18 years before I have to figure that one out. But, you know. It’s a blessing to be a father. Right? And it’s been a journey to get there.
MD: It’s interesting how the responsibility comes up again. Like, we said about being a sponsor. Because, that being one of the Four Pillars that’s used. And then I’m just thinking about how … I mean, I don’t know. Are you … Is it surprising to you looking—If you could have guessed where you’d be 10 years ago, like, that you’d ever be part of a … like, an enthusiastic member of an organization that’s sort of like, trying to convince other men the importance of responsibility? And taking responsibility? Could you have ever imagined that? Or guessed that that could be, you know what I mean, in the cards for you?
JC: You know, yes and no. Right? Before I got into my addictions and I got lost, right? I was, you know, part of little league baseball for Mark West Little League. And I coached my brother’s team. And I was a junior umpire; and then I became in charge of the junior umpires. And then I got onto the board for Mark West Little League as the Umpire in Chief. You know what I mean?
MD: You were into umpiring!
JC: Yeah! So, I’ve always joined groups, and then figured out how to get to the top, and like, bring people around. Right? So, yes, is the answer to the question. I did see myself there. And yes, I got lost in, you know, alcoholism and drug addiction. And it took me getting sober to get back to where I am. Ten years ago, if you were to ask me if I was a weekend manager and, you know, all this other stuff …
MD: ‘What’s a weekend?’ Yeah …
JC: You know what I mean? No! But does it surprise me that I’m part of organizations that have a lot of people that are doing charitable work, and that kind of stuff? No, not really. That’s me! You know what I mean? I enjoy helping people.
MD: Yeah. Yeah. I guess … I think that I can relate to getting sidetracked by drugs and alcohol. But, I don’t know, for me, and tell me if this is just me, or if you can relate also—I think I got sidetracked by the whole notion of being cool. You know, like … Oh, be a slacker. Cool kids don’t try that hard. And like, I don’t know. … I feel like the culture still is like, if we don’t … There is something unusual about people just being like, ‘Oh yeah, you need to take responsibility!’ You don’t start too many conversations like that.
JC: No! (Laughs) ‘What the hell is this guy talking about?’ But if you’re living the life, then people see it. They know who you are. You know. … If you want what I want, then do what I do. That goes back to attraction rather than promotion. Where, in the Men’s Weekend, there’s a lot about promotion, right? And I think a lot of men get scared away because, a lot of sponsors stick to: too much promotion, and not enough attraction. So, there’s a balance there! Right?
MD: Yeah, yeah. Right. We don’t have … Attraction rather than promotion is a 12-step precept. We can promote … we can promote the weekends. But in other words, be careful; tread lightly.
JC: Yeah. Don’t turn it into a sales pitch. That’s not what we’re doing.
MD: Because maybe it’s like, the excess of promotions that make so many people cynical over, … Or that’s why being cool is out there. Just ‘cause you’ve got to almost be cool in the midst of being sold—you know, everywhere you turn around, you’re gonna be sold something.
JC: You know, and … My opinion is, it has nothing to do with being cool. And just being able to be trustworthy. Do the men trust me?
MD: That’s interesting.
JC: And I think that’s why … I’ve had men, where I had to ask and ask and ask. I’ve had men sign up and then not go. I’ve had men, you know, leave the Weekend. I’ve had men, that have told me flat out no. I’ve had men say, ‘Absolutely! Why haven’t you asked me sooner?’ It’s all kinds of different responses and stuff. But … You definitely get more no’s than yes’s.
MD: Yeah, yeah. .. Like you said, it’s a big commitment for people to make. But I don’t know, yeah … (chuckles). One does have to be able to take ‘no’ for an answer, in order to get to ‘yes.’
JC: Right, and you know, bringing it back to weekend technology. It’s like: accept the no. Don’t accept the ‘I don’t know. Maybe. Bla bla bla.’ Like help support the man to be clear. No grey area. It’s a black or white question. Yes I want to go. No I don’t. Right? And, I hate living in the grey area. You know, I’m a very black-and-white person. It’s either yes. Or it’s no. In the middle it’s just bullshit to me. And, you know, that’s just me. A lot of other people, they’re like, ‘No, there’s a lot of grey in a lot of things!’ And I’m like, ‘Eh! Maybe for you. For me it’s simple. Yes. No.’
MD: And is that … and that was like the … I feel like the first Man-to-Men Weekend … I don’t know how much still but … I know that we still talk about ‘the bullshit.’ That’s still a big part of the Weekend.
JC: Absolutely. Yeah. We’ve actually increased how much we talk about it. Right? The men talk about what their bullshit is with other men. You knw, just kind of get all the bullshit flowing, so we can get rid of it!
MD: Yeah, so like in other words, even if you’re decisive and a black-and-white person, for you, it’s black and white … The amount of indecisiveness, like it could accumulate up amongst us … and just be a living thing that’s all around us sometimes.
JC: The bullshit, the burdens. All kinds of stuff that men have to carry. Right, and I know that DeArmon talked about the armor that men wear. And like, when you could take the armor off, and that kind of stuff.
MD: Shining armor.
JC: Exactly.
MD: And, I wonder. (Laughs) It’s funny, I’m sidetracked for a minute; I don’t know if there’s a good question around it; about like, what does ‘being cool’ have to do with anything? Where that’s coming from, for me. It’s not any weekend technology; that’s why I’m kind of like pausing like, whether there’s even a question there.
JC: It’s the bullshit.
MD: It’s bullshit.
JC: It’s bullshit! (laughs)
MD: You know what it probably is, is it’s like beer commercials. It’s not just beer commercials, but that might be the epitome of it. It’s like, I saw some beer commercials, that thought like, Oh that’s what life is supposed to be like! (Pause)
JC: It’s just bullshit.
MD: You’re selling beer! (Pause) Well … I want to take more of your time, but … I don’t know how much .. let’s stop here and if we have a second segment, we’ll pick it up. In case we don’t have a second segment, dude, thanks for your time. (Laughs) It’s great to have you guys from the Man-to-Men Weekend come talk about the Weekend. And I like a lot of the things you said about, how men should go! March 15-17?
JC: Yeah, and March 1-3. It’s the Sterling Men’s Weekend. The march to March! My hope is, men out will hear this interview; come circle up with us. There’s different men’s teams that meet weekly. You know, Sonoma County, Sacramento, all over the place. There’s different community service things we’re doing. You know, let’s take a break; there’s more to talk about, though.
MD: Alright, cool.
MD: Qun Men’s Division (Laughs)
JC: ‘Chun’!
MD: I think it’s been going on since 2014, about. And … DeArmon came by the men’s team I was at, with a couple other men named Dan Williams and Nick Demakas, to tell us about a men’s course; that was when I first met DeArmon. But at the same time, Stephen Smulewitz, who was on my team, he joined this other team as well. This other team, that was invite only, or something like that. And it, but, you know … I heard more about it when I took that men’s course; a lot of the men in the men’s course were in this new Qun men’s thing. And I showed up to a couple meetings, and I joined. At that time, shortly after they split into two teams. Of which … and then, DeArmon joined also. That was 2015. But … what’s it been for you?
JC: You know, what it’s been for me is … you know, a lot of fun. Yeah. You know, a lot of time, a lot of headache. And, a lot of heartbreak, too. The best part about Qun is, the community service, right? And just sending men to the Men’s Weekend, that is community service. Right? Building the community of men to serve is, it starts out with community service. And, we just got through Christmas. And, the current division coordinator, Mr. Lichau, had a vision of helping kids that weren’t going to be able to have Christmas without some help. The men of Qun went out and packed two cars full of toys. You know, it was great. We met at a location, and separated all the toys by age. some of the mens’ kids were there. And Santa Claus got to show up.
MD: I was about to say that; that … I understand that you were Santa Claus!
JC: No, Santa Claus came. He’s real. And, you know, the best part was, the men — Mr. Awad brought his daughter. And Mr. Lichau brought his kids. And they were understanding that, the toys weren’t for them, and that they were for kids that needed ‘em, and that they got to be part of separating ‘em out, right? And that’s good fathers right there. And, you know: There’s a lot of kids that got touched by what we did. And not in a weird way, either. But you know, it’s awesome! We’ve also, went and got a bunch of socks, and walked around downtown Santa Rosa and, you know …
MD: Not the same Christmas, but a previous Christmas
JC: No, a previous Christmas. It was wet out, a lot of homeless. All we did is went up and offered ‘em a pair of socks. Hey, you need some socks. We also walked around with Little Caesar’s pizzas, and fed some guys, and women, and you know, just being part of the community, and making it better. You know? The other night we were on a call, Core Team call for the division. And, you know, we were talking about what’s next, for community service. The idea of, you know, going to a beach, and circling up with as many men as we can, and everybody taking whatever amount of time and just going and cleaning up a beach. And, you know, turning it into an enrollment event for the weekends. Or, just, the different things we do for the division; It’s awesome to serve the community. And, I’ve been on my team since my point program, right? And, … It’s not the same team, and I’m going to bring it up at my next team meeting. Because, I’m the only one left from the point program. All the other men have moved away, or quit! And, some of ‘em are doing okay; some of ‘em are in jail. One of ‘em’s over in Ukraine. Yeah! Fighting. Mr. Edmunds, is over there fightin’ in Ukraine right now. And, you know, he’s a badass Marine, and he went back to it. And, you know, my Turner … It’s just, it’s different, right? But I’m still serving, and I’ve got to move up in the ranks of Qun. I got to serve just as a member of a team, and then got onto the Core Team. Like, we were just talkin’ about a few minutes ago, off camera. You were the Enrollment Manager, and then I took over for a quick second. Then, all of a sudden, the division was without a Division Coordinator … I stepped up into that position, and held it until I completed in this last cycle. I thought that I was done serving on the Core Team. And Mr. Lichau, who took over me, called me up and asked me if I would be part of the Core Team again as the Enrollment Manager. So that’s what I’m doing now. You know, I made it clear with Lichau that I’ll serve for three cycles. And a cycle is from Weekend to Weekend. And then I would train a replacement, and, you know, I would be completed with the enrollment manager job. And that’s if I make it, right? We set up some results for me to hit. We want to put 30 men into the Man-to-Men Weekend in March, and then 30 men into the Sterling Men’s Weekend. And that’s a feat! We’re down to twenty-something members. We’ve got a lot of work to do to get men registered to their men’s weekends. And I take it real serious. And, it’s not that hard; it’s just talkin’ to men. Right? We joked the other night, on the call … Helios, which is a team you’re on, is having a team meeting this coming Monday. And, I was like, on the Enrollment call, your guys’ enrollment rep said, ‘We’ve got 12 guests coming.’ And I was like, ‘Ahh, that’s awesome!’ So I talked about it on the Core Team call. And you called me out, you’re like, ‘Hey Cimino, you can come too—if you bring a guest.’ So I’m like, alright, that’s a challenge! So I’ve been calling men; I’m trying to bring a guest so I can be part of this thing. Right? ‘Cause, when you circle up, and there’s 12 men that don’t know what’s going on, and think … And all of a sudden, them saying yes to the Weekend, however that is. And that energy, to be part of … I’ve been part of a meeting where six men registered, in one night. Right? And, it was amazing. ‘Cause, we had one guy saying, ‘Ahh … no,’ And then, boom, boom, boom, boom! And then all of a sudden, he was going to the Weekend. All of ‘em went to this last Man-to-Men Weekend. It was incredible!
MD: Yeah, there’s something about, something infectious about … just being excited about … And it’s like, men finding their place among the men. I think is maybe what’s happening … But I … I mean, It’s a challenge, but it’s also, like … It’s my … I’m not being slimy in that regard in that … I’m not saying, ‘Hey, Cimino be my guest, so I can have a guest.’ Because, what good is that? Then I’m not sharing the Weekend with somebody new. I’m just getting another body, who has done both weekends. So, getting you to a meeting is not … But, you know people. Then I’ll claim you as a guest, if you have a guest!
JC: Absolutely! (Laughs)
MD: But I’ve seen things where like, you know, just the little … like, Alan Hill used to always say, like, well, hey, twenty bucks, who’s gonna reg … Everybody on the team, put in $20, whoever’s gonna register a man first. So, it’s this competitive thing about registration. And it’s funny, because then people, as you say, if we promote too much, people think like, ‘What are you getting stake knives or something?’
JC: It’s a toaster.
MD: But of course, we’re not. But, we wanna get … We just want to win!
JC: Yeah, to share the gift of the Weekend is what it’s all about. And it’s hard to explain what that is until you’ve gone through it. I think, one of my favorite events was a division meeting, and … Me and Carstens had a bet, about how many guests we’re gonna get there. It was a registration event, an Open House. So, Carstens and I made a bet. If I won, Carstens had to put on a tutu, and get in the middle of the men, and sing ‘I’m a Little Teapot,’ in a tutu. And if he won, you were just talkin’ about Alan Hill, he was part of the division at the time; I was gonna have to go out into the circle, get on my knees, have Hill take his shoes off and kiss his feet, and tell him that he’s the Grand Puba. (Laughs) And I sure as hell wasn’t kissing Hill’s feet, so damn right I beat Carstens! And, you know, Carstens looks good in a pink tutu. (Laughs) That might be breaking confidentiality, but I’ll do some push-ups about it, and I’ll be cleaned up. You know, it’s about having fun, right? We talk about that being a secondary purpose. If you’re not having fun, and you’re not getting value, then it’s not the right spot for you. Right? But if you’re bringing value, you’re having fun, and you’re aiming to the top for that purpose, then good things happen in people’s lives. Just for me, since I did my Man-to-Men Weekend, I got married, I had a kid, I’ve gotten … I doubled up on a job, where I’m making twice what I used to make. And, you know, I bought a beautiful four-bedroom house. And like, the material things don’t mean shit. I mean, it’s nice! But like the way I view myself, and carry myself, because of the weekends—that’s where the value is. Right?
MD: Yeah. It’s not even like, whether people go to the Weekend or not … isn’t even … I like just having a reason to call people. You know like … And then … An enrollment call, could be like … Oh I know this man’s not really ready to go to the Weekend. But I’m gonna stay … stay in his … I don’t know. This whole idea of purpose-driven … It’s purpose-driven. You know there’s like, the purpose of the weekends leads to all this activity. And I guess … I’m used to, ‘being cool.’ Being cool, you’re just hanging out. That’s what we get away from, hopefully. So … I also like that you said that … it is community service just getting men to the weekends.
JC: Absolutely.
MD: It’s nice that we come up with some other community service projects. But it’s almost like, we don’t need to. Well, we could do a little of this, or a little bit of that. But what we’re doing … There’s a singleness of purpose; like, you want to help men. So, I don’t know. I think that stuff can be enrolling, because people like community service. But at the same time, I don’t want it to be a distraction from our purpose.
JC: That’s right. You know, there’s a fine line, and it’s hard to stay on point. You know, and … there’s something awesome about … Christmas Eve. I got a phone call, and it was from a man that I met that circles up down in Southern California. I went down there for Team Leadership Training and met the man, and talked to him about the Man-to-Men Weekend. He’s a Sterling men’s graduate. Anyway, so … Get a call from him on Christmas Eve. We don’t talk, really. But, he was calling saying, Cimino, how you doing? Merry Christmas. How’s life? I told him about my son. You know, he told me what he was goin’ through. I’m like, what are you doing for Christmas? He’s like, mom and dad are separated now. So I might go to mom’s, might go to dad’s. I’m like, well is it, might go to mom’s, might go to dad’s, or what are you gonna do? And he’s like, ‘Thank you!’ He goes, ‘I’m goin’ to both!’ And he’s like, ‘I just made a decision,’ right? And it’s like, get out of the grey area and get black and white. I’m goin’ to mom’s, I’m going to dad’s, I’m goin’ to both. And like, it clicked for him on the phone call. He’s like, I’m goin’ to both thanks a lot. And I asked him: How is the Kai Zen dojo going? And he’s like, KaiZen’s doing good. And I asked him if he’s talking to men about sending ‘em to the weekends, and told him that we have the Man-to-Men Weekend coming up. Just part of conversation, right? He’s like … When I met him, I showed him the video about Man-to-Men, and told him it would be great to have him. And, other men from Southern California have been up for the Weekend. And, on the phone call, wasn’t expecting it—he called me, talked about Man-to-Men. And all of a sudden, you know: ‘I’m a ‘Fuck-It’’ which means, ‘I’m going,’ right? And, by
February 1, this man’s going to be registered to go to the next Man-to-Men Weekend. And that’s a result of just reaching out, letting men know how you’re doing, and just having that conversation, right? Like, have a reason to call. You know, that man probably didn’t call me to say yes, he was going to a weekend. Because I answered the phone and we talked, and I just brought it up, he was like, ‘Yeah, absolutely, I want to go do that.’ And I think that goes back to … trust.
MD: Yeah. Building trust amongst the men in your life. Well, that’s awesome, and I know there’s a lot of good men down there … KaiZen’s is a men’s division, dojo, in Southern California … There’s something about the word ‘dojo,’ like it means something, or has some history. Whatever. But … Yeah, the other thing that reminds me of, just talking about enrollment, and just having fun when you’re doing it, is that … We were talking about the bullshit earlier, and the bullshit makes, like … confuses men about it. You know, it’s like, ‘Oh, enrollment,’ and it becomes … You talk about enrollment sometimes without having fun. And it becomes like this weird, crazy thing. Like, ‘ohh, uhh, enrollment.’ Like, just the word ‘enrollment,’ actually? Out of context, or in the wrong context, it sounds like: ‘Take out the papers and pens,’ or something like that. I don’t know.
JC: And it can be. If it’s not led right—’What’s your active count? Bla bla bla bla bla.’ You know, stuff’s important, but there’s a way to bring it. It’s important to have fun, because … If it’s not fun, and it’s not bringing value, why would you do it?
MD: Yeah. Yeah, and .. bringing value, right, just as much a part of it. So it’s fun … And then also like … I remember that, in 12-step rooms. Some people, they share … This morning, my wife yelled at me ... whatever … just boring, run-of-the-mill stuff. And then some people said, like, whatever: I know people … People’s lives are at stake. You know what I mean? There’s this deadly seriousness that comes in. It doesn’t come naturally to me, to start getting really serious with people. But I can see it; you have a little … you have a gift there. You have the dimension of, okay, I’m … I’ve experienced some pain, I know where some of this stuff can go off the rails. I know how important this is to get to men.
JC; Yeah. Yeah. You know, there’s a time to have fun. There’s a time to be serious. And, absolutely, men’s lives are at risk. And, if the men’s lives are at risk, then their spouses are at risk, and their children are at risk, their parents are at risk, their employers are at risk. It’s a spiral effect, right? Being able to enroll someone, and being able to just be part of their lives … Just to help a little bit, it’s worth it to me. Being part of the division, and being part of the weekends, and all that stuff. It’s a lot of time away from my family at home. It’s a sacrifice, for sure. Right? ‘Cause, if I’m at a team meeting three hours a week, and I’m doing a Core Team call, and I’m doing this, and I’m doing that. All these hours and seconds away from my son, and my wife — it sucks! It does. But, if it saves a man’s life, how much does it suck? My wife’s okay; better than okay. My son’s in good care. I’m not saying that I’m not responsible for being part of that care. But, if men like you and I aren’t helping save men, then what about their sons, what about them? Right? So … it’s part of … You brought up the Four Pillars, right? And ‘sacrifice’ is one of ‘em. So …
MD: The … Yeah, and … Men’s lives are at stake. The idea that men are in trouble … It’s like … we’re not trying to make up some new thing, or whatever. …We’re just takling about … I don’t know … Instead of me, trying to put words in your mouth. How would you contextualize that. What is the trouble that … When we say that men’s lives are in the balance, you’re talking about …
JC: I’m talking about men that are isolating; I’m talking about men that are going through divorce. I’m talking about new husbands. I’m talking about young men that are pretending to be married. I’m talking about men that are not honest with themselves, that can’t stand themselves. I’m talking about men that are actually doing good in their lives and are upstairs, and have no problems. I’m talking about all the men! Right? And, I’m talking about … what was the … suicide. The, I don’t have the card in front of me, I forget the exact figures, but it’s like, a man kills himself every second. So that’s 60 men per minute. And that’s … I don’t know the numbers on the top of my head, but … multiply it. One every second, so, you know, 60 a minute, times 60, Mr. Math Man, times seven days a week, times a month, times a year … It’s like, It gets up to half a million men kill themselves a year, or something like that.
MD: That would be … I’ll look it up and link it; let’s get the stat. (Editor’s note: the actual statistic is one every minute, which would account for over 700,000 annually which is the worldwide number posted on the World Health Organization website. Per Justin, furthermore, in 2019, 1.3% of all deaths were suicides; and the global suicide rate is over twice as high among men as among women. In the U.S., per the CDC, there were over 49,000 suicides in 2022, of which over 39,000 were men.)
JC: And I have it written down at home.
MD: I figured, yeah.
JC: And, how about young men? Let’s talk about the young men for a second. In all 50 states, young women, girls, are half a grade or higher above the young men. You know, the jails. The … 70% more likely for a young woman age of 30 to own her own home, versus a man. That’s crazy to men. Here’s one. I mentioned I just bought my house in August, and my in-laws told me that it’s important that I look into … life insurance. So I called …. 36-year-old man, my wife’s the same age. I called and got a quote, million dollar policy. My wife: $40 a month. What would you expect mine, as a man, to be?
MD: Sixty.
JC; Yeah … No! Two-forty. Six times! Six times more expensive for a man, 36 age, no health problems, no medical exam for either man or a woman. Six times! For a man. For health insurance. That’s a crazy fact to me. You know, and it’s like …
MD: Life insurance.
JC: Life insurance. You know, and I don’t know why that is, or what-not .. I don’t want to begin to speculate but … It’s like, how is it six times more expensive for a man? I could get into it, but it would probably piss some people off, and I don’t want to go there.
MD: Right, and it’s not like — I was listening to some video this morning about like, the director of the next Star Wars movie is gonna be a woman, and bla bla bla. And then the guy said … I mean, he talked about just arguments where it’s like: ‘Somebody from this ethnic group should do this by year this.’ Or whatever. It’s like, we don’t care .… It’s not so much about equal … It’s not so much that we care about our ethnic group being represented. But it’s more like … Well, why focus on one gender?
JC: I’m not a woman. I don’t understand women. I don’t want to even begin to try to understand women. And the women need to take care of the women. That’s my stance. And the men need to take care of the men. And that’s not to say that my wife doesn’t take care of me and I don’t take care of my wife. It would be the exact opposite if I brought what I bring to my men, to my wife. In fact, it wouldn’t be pretty. Right? I could come to my men, and bring the deep ugly facts of life, to my men. Where if I would bring that to my wife, or my mother, or my sister … it just … It’s not okay.
MD: Yeah, so it’s kind of like … There’s a healing that can take place at a men’s weekend. And one would think, at a women’s weekend, also. But we’re just talking about what our experience is. And the only reason we tend to, we might, compare men and women like, this versus that, is so often we get the question like, ‘Well why do you have to … what do men need anything?’ or whatever. And it’s like, well, we’re all human beings. And so, there’s like … And we can help each other. Seems like the type of help we can give each other. I don’t know, what I’ve been saying lately is … I like, I like to be around men. I’d like to find … I’d like to be around one woman; I’d like to be around a woman. Not that I can’t work with women. But I think that, I could care for one woman. You know what I mean; but I’m not going to go out and care for women, like ‘Oh, I’m going to help women en masse.’ I don’t know how!
JC: Yup. It’s not my calling. It’s not my forte.
MD: Yeah. There are maybe men who could.
JC: Sure. Sterling leads the women’s weeknd. You know? I don’t know what that looks like. I know that, I did my Men’s Weekend March 2022, and, I came home, and I told my wife about the Women’s Weekend in August of 2022. And Mrs. DeArmon registered my wife to that Weekend. And, I think it goes back to trust. The trust that we have for the DeArmons, both Vicki and Mitch. Right, and me telling my wife, ‘Hey this is happening,’ and the trust that she has in me, as her husband. And, whatever else role that brings. Father of her child, light partner, bla bla bla. And, you know, it’s not bla bla bla. But that the connection we have with each other; it was no question for her of ‘I’m not going to that Weekend. I ain’t going to listen to some man.’ You know what I mean? It was just, ‘Absolutely.’ And you know, we … we don’t really talk about what happened at either of our weekends, we just kind of live it. And it’s a noticeable change in both of us from doing our weekends. And, you know, I wish that … Eh. Whatever. I’m gonna stay out of the wishes for the women. The women can take care of the women.
MD: They could have a Woman-to-Women Weekend. But yeah, they’d have to … Or, they could not.
JC: I don’t know.
MD: But yeah, I remember thinking that after the first Man-to-Men Weekend. I’d just done production on the Women’s Weekend for the first time. That doesn’t mean I was inside the room—I wasn’t. We don’t; I don’t know exactly how it works when Justin’s in there with them. But … I had that sense of appreciation; Wow, it’s cool that we have that. It means that, we’re not in some kind of exclusive community. We’re part of something that’s trying to help everybody.
JC: Sure. You know, and, my men’s team put on a dinner for all the women. We were at a spot where, there was a kitchen, and it was closed off. And then, it was a meeting room. We set up tables, with the tablecloths, set it real nice. All the men had a part. right? There were servers, and they dressed in button-up shirts, and ties, and slacks. They were the only ones that went out there. They brought the women their meals. And the rest of us men, you know, prepared the food and got everything ready, and we stayed out of the way. And just to sit back and listen to the women, once they got together, was pretty awesome. Because a result that happened, that wasn’t on our CPR, or I should say DeArmon’s CPR, ‘cause he led the event, was all the women took each other’s phone numbers down, and created a circle of their own. That’s the women doing women things. It was cool just to be a part of being able to serve for them, and to just stay out of the way and stay in the background. I made a charcuterie board. And I was like … You know, that’s not me, that’s Amber. Amber makes the cool charcuterie boards, but I know she likes ‘em. So I was like, I’ll make a charcuterie board. And I can’t make a rose out of the salami or anything like that. But I took the love and the care to make it as best as I can. And I knew that there was gonna be a vegetarian there. So I made a separate charcuterie board, and separated them, so there was no meat on the board for the vegetarian. And, just, little things like that. That’s how the men should be taking care of the women, in my opinion. Just serve ‘em, stay out of their way. They’re much more intellectual, smarter. They’re playing chess, and I can barely play checkers.
MD: And, yeah, and … yeah, we … It’s good to sort of … appreciate … That sounds like an awesome event.
JC: It was fun! We had a good time.
MD: I haven’t been on a team that did that; I gotta get with it. Steal that. ..
JC: That’s ‘cause you’re not on our team; you’re on that other team. (Laughs)
MD: Yeah. The other thing that’s been really good about this interview is that like, I think it answers the question that so many people ask me: ‘What do you guys do all the time?’ You know what I mean? It’s nice that we’ve been able to talk about, some of the … Just to come back and talk about Qun is … you know.
JC: Community service, it’s what we do.
MD: Without having to do a community service project, but we do sometimes do those.
JC: And we have fun. And, we take care of each other. And, you know, I have a circle of men because of Qun Men’s Division, where … You know, we lost someone a couple weeks ago to cancer, and my phone was blowing up. You okay? Can I do anything for you? Can I come take out the garbage for ya? Do you need your dog’s poop picked up? And, I don’t take help. You know. And that’s a flaw from me. But, for my phone and to get those messages … It’s like, that’s pretty cool. Because, a lot of men don’t have that. Right? And, you know, there’s no situation that I will ever go through, alone.
MD: Yeah. Yeah.
JC: It means a lot.
MD: Yeah, right on. Do you want to say anything about your loss?
JC: Fuck cancer. And, you know. It was hard to watch Glen Gephardt go through his pancreatic cancer. And to watch him wither away. And I got to be of service to him. He got diagnosed in either the end of March or the beginning of April, and he passed away on the 27th of December. And .. He was having a hard time eating, and I barbecued a tri-tip. So, the last eight months or whatever it’s been, nine months, I was barbecue-ing tri-tips for Glen. You know about a month ago was the last time I’d barbecued one for Glen. And he wasn’t eating, and he was struggling, and my wife got a phone call from Roseanne, and Glen wanted some trti-tip and it was raining. So I went over there, and you know, I barbecued in the rain, and got to serve him food. And that was really the last time I got to see Glen. Other than one other time. And then when he passed away, I got to go over there with my wife, and say our goodbyes. And just be a part of that. His daughter from Pennsylvania was in town, and she asked if I’d come over and cook tri-tip.
MD: This is your mom’s brother? Affectionately call him your uncle?
JC: Amber’s side. IT’s not even my side. They’re adopted parents to Amber, really. You know what I mean? She calls ‘em her aunt and her uncle. You know. It’s like, Roseanne and Glen were second parents to Amber. And Glen was our realtor for our house, and taught Amber how to dance, and taught Amber a lot of stuff, and encouraged Amber to go to college. He was a very important man in Amber’s life. So, I was glad I got to meet him, and be part of his life for the last, I think it was seven years or something like that. Just to be of service to a man.
MD: Well, it’s just another — I don’t know. Like, a lot of men in your life, huh?
JC: Absolutely. Super blessed.
MD: Well, hey, I hope you think of me as one of ‘em.
JC: Absolutely, Dittmer!
MD: And hopefully, you know … we’ve got to get this … Man-to-Men podcast number five, in the books. Mr. Justin Cimino, weekend manager. March 15-17, come on out, and see us there.
JC: Yup. Thank you.
MD: Right on, man.