Episode 9: More with Mitch DeArmon!
The Man-to-Men Weekend co-founder and co-leader speaks on knights and damsels
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Ditt: Okay! So … Mitch DeArmon, good to see you again. So we have—so I promised you reader mail. And so … We spoke the last time you were on the podcast about ‘The Knight in Shining Armor.’ So, uh … before maybe I get to the … Before I read the little — it’s a short note, do you want to just give some context on that concept for people that might not have tuned in.
DA: Sure! Well one of the things that I think is important, as we continue to dismantle this knight in shining armor, which also plays into this very popular idea of: Men are protectors and providers, and, that the younger men right now are trying to re-establish as their footing for manhood or sustainable, or functional, or validated manhood, is: We’re all this! We’re all this thing; protectors and providers! And the knight in shining armor seems to exemplify the protector part of it. And I want to take it apart a little bit more so that we can see that it’s a very young and immature part of it. Because the idealization of that shining armor, and who the knight in shining armor is in relationship with. Which is generally a damsel in distress.
Ditt: It makes me think of fairy tales! Like, what’s your favorite fairy tale? You know, anything that you think of, when you think of the knight in shining armor?
DA: I normally just always default into,: She ate the poisonous apple, she fell asleep. The knight in shining armor comes in, Prince Charming.
Ditt: Snow White.
DA: Snow White, is it Snow White?
Ditt: Maybe.
DA: So I’m sure I had a childhood, but I’m not sure that any of those things—I was probably interested in baseball, not in fairy tales! So … But I do, I did get in-culturated into this idea that the knight comes in, he kisses her, wakes her up. And they go off, and they have this relationship. And I know that it’s become somewhat comical. Or at least, we’ve made some attempts at invalidating the happily ever after concept. And I want to validate how important that is. Because of the maturity level in which that idea comes from. First of all, the damsel in distress, who is in the relationship, doesn’t have any responsibility. So I want to address that.
Ditt: But before, actually. So there’s an interesting thing about Snow White. Have you followed at all—you know, they were gonna make—Disney was going to remake Snow White. And then there was some controversy because, the actress who was gonna play Snow White was interviewed, and she was kinda like, ‘Oh yeah, no we’re not going to do Snow White the way we used to do it; like our heroine’s not going to wait around to be kissed by a man! And it’s not about her finding love; you know, she’s gonna be a strong woman!” You know, it was kind of like a repudiation of the — She’s like, ‘Well that was 1935, 85 years ago.’ So it was sorely in need of updating. And then there’s like a conservative backlash to that, where they’re like, ‘Well hey, what the hell, Snow White’s the legacy of the thing, and it’s about women.’
DA: Well I don’t; I haven’t followed any of that, but I also think there is a mis-perspective on it. Since so much of the attack on the fairy tale to begin with comes from the feminist movement. And so they want to make it about the young man and the young woman’s relationship, and those roles. But they’re not really making it about, who poisoned her. And they’re not really trying to deal with this other relationship, that seems to still go unaddressed, about the older woman who poisoned Snow White to begin with, where she needed to be woken up first of all. And that’s one of a … it’s a big point! Is that, how many of our older women are giving life-sustaining information to younger women, so that they don’t fall asleep! So that they are awake. Or are they just dancing ‘em down the trail of whatever their older-woman agenda is, and feeding these younger women with bogus information that’s putting them to sleep! Because of a lot of our younger women who have adopted a feminist attitude, are just hugely dysfunctional in relationships! Our relationship status is not getting better! So you could basically say, if you want to make it about the man-woman relationship, since, that’s what I get to go by: Is, that poisoning of the young woman by the older woman, has gotten worse! Because, our younger women are more entitled; our younger women are more demanding; our younger women are lazier than they have ever been! They have less and less expectations on themselves for their own performance than they ever have! And, are more demanding on what men should do for them; and many times it’s what they could do for themselves! So, what they think they deserve, through this poisoned apple that they ate, has gotten worse! So they can have this other attitude, that the struggle is between the man and the woman, really. But, I think what you’re talking about, is the wrong relationship. That relationship, that, whoever said what you’re talking about—that part of the relationship needs to be addressed between the older woman and the younger woman. And we can get onto the—not waiting around, which I’ll support. I never told my daughters to wait around! It’s like, you can find a man on any corner, so why would you wait around? If you like him, you can like the next one too, you don’t have to sit there and go, ‘Oh, he’s the only one!’ That’s a very childish mentality. A damsel in distress would love that mentality! Because that would be the distress, right? Here’s the man, right; here’s the only man ever. And he comes around, and you’re already codependent. You’re already way too emotionally trying to attach to the unavailable guy. That’s in your imagination only! It’s like, yeah, so what’s she saying is right. But where did the information come from?
Ditt: Yeah, no, That makes sense that, like—Even though I’ve been exposed to that woman’s, or that little critique of the original Snow White, it’s being ridiculed a lot by people; there’s a backlash to it. But there’s some parts of it that are spot-on. Yeah, they’re just — But yeah, but in this context, as a feminist claim, yeah it might be — missing the point, or missing one of the points.
DA: Because I know in our last interview, one of the things that we did mention was this older woman-to-younger woman relationship, that continually goes untouched. And here’s the perfect example of: We’re going to talk about the boy-girl relationship, Snow White. We’re not gonna talk about, well why did the older woman poison the younger woman? And why isn’t there somebody there with the older woman to nurture her along in her old age? And why is her recourse to damage the life of a younger woman? Because I’m dealing with a fair number of couples, where these younger women have that damage! They’re passing on feminism that doesn’t work for their marriages! And then it doesn’t work for how they relate to their husbands. And we can sit there and look at the stats—And these women are not looking at themselves going, ‘How come I can’t keep a husband?’ Like it’s the most difficult trick in the world. When, you know, 50 years ago it wasn’t that hard. Seventy years ago it was even easier, and their expectations were even less. And now they’re making more demands and if they don’t get their demands met, they’re getting divorces. And it really has to do with the child not maturing to the point of making these demands in a childish way, where if you don’t give me what I want, I’m going to leave. That’s a very young attitude to have.
Ditt: So, this is—maybe I should, before I get to my reader’s question ‘cause I’m, the one I’m having now is like: I think we talked about the knight in shining armor, as, I think is, damaging—like, it would be damaging to men to foolishly have that view. But it could be damaging to women also, to have that view. Potentially.
DA: Well, in … The polarization of attitude is—which is crazy! If it’s damaging to one, it’s damaging to both. We are a community; this is one planet, we are a humanity. We’re all in this together. So you can’t sit there and compete for who’s the most damaged! And that’s one of the hierarchies of, of who gets to, who deserves to be, to have government resources bestowed upon them first—is the most damaged! And so there’s this whole competition for claiming damages. But they have to ignore the truth in order to do that. Because, whether it be war, whether it be on the job, whether it be at school, our men are more damaged than our women are. It doesn’t matter if it comes at the hands of other men. It doesn’t matter if it comes at the force of their labor. It doesn’t matter if it comes at war. It doesn’t matter. Our men are dying more often, from more things than women do! And so the justification of resources that is being used through dramas and traumas, so that women can get these resources, isn’t really comparable, if you compare them to who’s being hurt more, men or women. And it’s also true, boys or girls. Boys get more injured by more things; boys do worse at school than girls do. There’s not a fair dollar amount allocated, indicated that boys are doing worse at school than girls are. It’s not an equal amount. Girls are being way more funded than boys are. So, if you really looked at the stats, and then you try to do an equal amount of funding—what they do is, they go back into the past somewhere and say, ‘Well way back here it was imbalanced.’ Well way back there life was entirely different. Way back there there was no grocery stores. Way back there there was only cloth diapers. You know, way back there, there was a whole bunch of other circumstances in life, that no longer exist! And so, and just like we’re gonna get to, with taking off the armor, for boys; we need some of this other dialogue to become current and not go too far in the past, to justify what we’re doing right now. We need to deal with right now, right now. And not go, 40 years ago, 50 years ago, 70 years ago. We need to go, right now, here’s the situation at hand. More men are committing suicide than women; why are men feeling so worthless?
Ditt: Yeah. … I mean, Louis CK has this bit about … Men … He has, his sister’s children … her son goes, he’s like a, she’s got three boys, and they’re like tornadoes. She sits down on the couch; she’s all tired. Her son just takes sand and puts it in her tea! You know, he’s like … and he says like … The boys just do damage; like … they’ll physical—they’ll run around in circles, they’ll run you around in circles. And he says … Whereas .. His little daughters … Why couldn’t I have had girls, they’re very sweet, whatever. But, he says, no they’re fucked up! Like they’ll … His daughters go up to him and say, like, you know: ‘My sister’s toy broke. I want you to break—’ Or, ‘My toy broke; I want you to break my sister’s toy. So it’s even!’ And you know; she makes such a deal out of it, that he’s like … ‘And I did break it—she stayed on me, so I did break it.’ You know what I mean? But like, and he says for an adult, like, ‘A man ‘ll like, cut your arm off and steal your truck. But a woman will break your soul! You know? So it’s this whole, like—But is it possible that men I guess, to relate to what you were saying: Is it possible that men are physically harmed, but women are more psychologically harmed, just based on the way we’re built?
DA: I think that there is some truth to that as a possibility. I would argue the point saying that how we express the damage is different. I wouldn’t say one is more damaged than the other. But I would say that when I start expressing the damage that I’ve been through; and how she, my counterpart, is expressing the damage she’s been through … Like, maybe she cries. Maybe I break furniture. The expression is every bit as dynamic, and it’s every bit as …. (It) results in the same kind of relief. But, how we express it might be a little bit different. What we’ve grown to do is, because of how the ego works, is we have—and how judgmental we are, is we’ve decided that this way is the valuable way, the important way, the right way; and that way is the wrong way, and we have — in all of our lack of maturity, we’ve swung the pendulum from one side to the other, saying which one is. And we’ve given it the dominant attention, to justify it. And we’ve engendered the attention. But it has nothing to do with what’s effective. It just has to do with where we’re putting the attention.
Ditt: So another article I was exposed to was just talking about, how, in our political arena, and especially, maybe at universities: We have this, we have weaponized women’s tears. So women’s tears win all these arguments now; because a man can’t, like, a man can’t respond to a woman’s tears. And a man can’t—So women lead a lot of these protest movements. Now, a man can’t cry awkwardly in the middle of a argument, but a woman’s tears, like a man … has, I don’t know, we just haven’t known how to respond it. I don’t know if that’s part of the knight in shining armor narrative. You know? Like, because maybe if we don’t have that narrative, then we’re not as totally flabbergasted by women’s tears.
DA: Well there’s—I think, and this has, once again, this has to do with a maturity thing. It’s like, what do you think those tears mean? If we put that tears mean that the person is hurting, and that they’re letting go of pain … Then we can be patient! And then we gotta get back to the business. But if we — And the important aspect of that is get back to the business. The manipulative people; they try to make the tears the end of the discussion. Somebody has been hurt—game over! And that is, that’s when, especially at younger ages, because I’ve raised three daughters. And I have a wife; my wife does not use tears to be manipulative. It’s like, but my daughters when they were young, they don’t do it anymore, but when they were young, they did! They cried to try to get out of trouble. If you tried to hold them accountable, which is popular these days, they would cry, and hope that that was enough. And their mother would step in, and go like, ‘Look, she’s already crying, bla bla bla,’ and try and get it to stop. I said, ‘Yeah, but she hasn’t fixed the problem. She hasn’t agreed to alter the behavior; she doesn’t understand the lesson yet.’ And I would not stop until there was an understanding. ‘Cause that understanding is what brings forward maturity. And the ability to alter the behavior so they don’t continue to cause damage with their own behavior. What we see these days, is people cry, and then they continue the behavior, they continue to cause the damage, because people let them get away with—an emotional response is the end of it. ‘Can’t you see that I’m hurting?’ It’s like, well the tears don’t indicate pain! Tears could just as easily indicate sorrow. They could indicate fear. They could indicate all kinds of other things. But, as adults, we’re responsible for the lessons being taught; not for the emotions being indulged. And if we’re going to, if we’re going to continue to practice this behavior of making decisions based on somebody else’s emotions, we’re going to be set up to be tricked. To be manipulated. And then when the other person doesn’t respond like we guessed that they would, we’re going to feel betrayed. Because we have no agreement with them on a change of behavior; what we did was make assumptions pretending like we’re all empaths! And I think that that feeling means this; and I’m going to project my expectations on the person, without them taking responsibility for stating, like an adult, what they’re willing to do. So they have no responsibility in it! And that’s why you see a lot, these people who are highly emotive—they never change! Because they’re never given or expected to take responsibility. All they’re given is more attention for their emotions.
Ditt: Okay. I imagine, like, that’s making me think of like … Conflict with people who are emoting. Not necessarily women; it could be men. You know, just …
DA: Yeah. There’s lots of men who’ve picked up on this trick!
Ditt: Yeah, I think I’ve heard you talk about it in another podcast. …
DA: Yeah. Especially young men! Young men will cry to get out of trouble. I’ve seen ‘em do it in jail for horrible actions! And I’ve seen females respond to these young men, like they were little boys! You know, they’ll respond to these young men who have physically hurt people, when they cry, like they fell down and hurt themselves and they have a boo-boo. You know, ‘Oooh, god, he scraped his knee. Look, oh look he’s crying—what a boo-boo! Let’s put some bactine on it or something.’ And what they did was they stabbed somebody. Or they shot at somebody. And they’ll treat that — they’ll be so enmeshed with the emotions, that they will not, they’ll totally lose sight of: This was a horrible act of violence that somebody could have died from. And this kid is crying, and you’re going to not follow through with humanizing the entire experience. You’re gonna de-humanize him, by breaking it down into only emotions, and no responsibility for the actions.
Ditt: Yeah. That, which—So like, humanizing it would be like: Txxhe actual violence that took place; there’s somebody else, who’s maybe not in the room, but they’re stabbed now, and they’re wounded …
DA: And you’re gonna pay their hospital bill! If it takes you ten years to work it off—you’re gonna pay it! It doesn’t matter what your other circumstances are; it doesn’t matter if you go to college or not. You’re gonna pay the bill.
Ditt: What, what I was imagining in recalling incidents where I’ve dealt with somebody, you know, maybe who’s emotional … is just like discomfort. I imagine, as a parent … Was it as a parent where you had all of those, or most of those experiences? Where you … Where does one get trained to sort of hang in the breach and handle whatever emotional outburst … Because it might not be tears, it might be anger, right? It could be somebody breaking furniture, like you said. But like, how do you know, how do you have the maturity to, or what does it look like to develop the maturity to see a conflict and be like, okay, this is where this has to go.
DA: So I don’t know if this in context to what you’re saying. However. Let’s say, something got damaged. A person, place, thing, whatever you want to call it. And there was some kind of reparation needed. Nothing needs to be done until the reparation is complete. So, say you broke a window. It’s like, you don’t need to punish ‘em. You don’t need to congratulate ‘em, you don’t need to do anything. Until, like — At one point, my son broke some windows. And I was sitting there, looking at him, and he was like, five or six. And of course, those were my windows, and they cost money, and I needed the windows so the wind didn’t blow freely through the building. And I saw a whole bunch of inconveniences lined up because these windows were broken. Now I could have taken an adult perspective, and gone like, ‘That was the dumbest thing I’ve seen in my entire life; what the hell did you think you were doing?’ But I’m talking to a five-year-old. Now why would a five-year-old break windows? Is he being malicious? Well he didn’t seem to have any anger-rage frustration going on to be malicious, so I couldn’t assume it’s that. Do I think he’s just a mean little prick and tyrannical, and trying to hurt me and make my life inconvenient? I think he’s way too self-centered for that; he is five after all. So I asked him, I said, ‘Why did you break all these windows?’ And he looks at me, with his beautiful little eyes, and his smooth little skin, and he goes, ‘I like the way it sounded.’ So, how do you punish that? So, in my view, punishment’s not what’s there—reparation is. So there was, nothing needed to be done, except for: put him in the car, go to the hardware store, get the panes of glass, get the puddy to fix the panes of glass, take him down, show him out to fix, even though he’s only five—how to fix a window. Sit there with him, and take him through the entire process where he takes his time, and his day, and now he’s taking both of our times. Neither of us have enough time to do this job. Both of us are gonna do the damn job. And he fixed every pane of glass that he broke. It’s like, that’s reparation for what happened. And I didn’t say at the end, good ob. What I said was, would you please not break any more of my windows? And he said, ‘Okay, dad.’ And it was over! It was a very practical, reasonable, and an effective response to what had happened. It didn’t have to do with, you know, ‘My windows! And my thing! And how dumb are you! And bla bla bla.’ It had to do with, the windows are broken, they need to be fixed. But right now, our whole society is so hell-bent on turning everything into an emotional connection to everything, that the emotional connection has nothing to do with function. And it ends with the emotional connection, so shit just stays broke, pardon my language. It just stays broke! So no one has to take responsibility for things being moving forward. And … We are gonna get to that shining armor stuff, right? Boy, we took off flying on this thing, that’s good!
Ditt: So we can—let’s let our reader mail bring it back. So this message says, ‘I’d ask,’ he asks, ‘Is there a positive place for those knight in shining armor, damsel in distress instincts that many men and women have? Do you believe it’s all just childish and undermines real connection and partnership? Or do you think there’s some healthy application of such instincts, in a self-aware, mutually respectful way?
DA: Okay, so here’s what I would say. I like the way that he ended it. So I think it’s a natural and normal position, for a young, up-and-coming young man. And what I’m talking about is, somebody hitting puberty. So his testosterone level is skyrocketing. His muscles are becoming firm. His self-awareness of hims—, physically, is becoming focused. How his hair looks; how his chest looks; how fast he is or not. All these things he’s becoming hyper-self-conscious, which could be covered up with armor. So you can’t really see him; but he can also test his abilities. He’s naturally drawn to risky behavior, to test his abilities. So wanting to be tested is a normal puberty thing. That’s why like, tryouts for baseball and football teams and things are … They’re so nerve-wracking, but they’re so important. Like trying out; it could be for a play or something. But being something where you’re tested, you’re measured, and you’re judged. It enlivens all of those things in him—it scares the living crap out of him. And so putting on the armor, and making it look as good as he can make it look, and he’s gonna take all the courage he’s got, because testosterone will allow you to do that. And step out there and do that. And now, the most important thing, is in the wake, right? A damsel. Because the most powerful force of the universe is at play: procreation. Everything depends on him being successful to do this one thing. His whole biology, beyond his psychology, every instinct is designed to enable him to do this one thing. I know this great psychologists agree; but he’s here to do that. He is here to … And she gets to choose. And he wants to be chosen. So, the risk is high. Keep exposure at the minimum—armor yourself, ‘cause this is scary. It’s gonna get seen. And, go out and do—well, how do you find her? Well, do you think she’s willfully gonna step out there and go, hey I’m judging the crap out of you right now? And I’m deciding whether you are gonna measure up or not. Because I have a job to do. Because there is a time where, in a tribal way, the consideration of the female was the gene pool. It wasn’t, the importance of a whole bunch of other stuff. It wasn’t, how is she gonna be affected. Procreation was about, is this the strongest gene pool that I am gonna participate in, so my offspring—the woman’s gonna bear children—have the greatest chance of survival, ‘cause not everybody lives. Those are the considerations on why they choose. Not just, I’m gonna go have sex with anybody. I’m gonna go have sex with the best. And he’s working his ass off, to try to — if he’s not the best, at least be as close to the best that’s available to her. It’s like, so now he’s got the armor on. If he’s smart, it’s shiny, it’s sharp, it looks like it’s effective armor. And she’s considering, what he’s doing. In order for him to perform, she’s got to give him something to perform about. She’s got to give him some distress to serve.
Ditt: Mmmmmmm.
DA: So that he’s got a reason, to perform. Not just, he comes in there like a clumsy old oaf in a bunch of armor. She has to have a reason for him to expose himself. ‘Cause that’s what she’ asking him to do. You see it in nightclubs. And the worst case scenarios, you hear about it all the time, where these young gals will work a situation, where two young males ‘ll start fighting, over her. It’s like, that’s old! That’s not new news. And they have all kinds of names for it now. But what she could possibly be doing is looking for the best mate possible. If you don’t demonize her. And these guys are trying to prove themself as the best mate possible. It’s like, okay. If you get down to the nitty gritty. Who’s gonna expose themselves? Somebody wins, somebody loses. They’re supposed to—what we’ve done in time is we’ve created rules of engagement, so that we don’t have a bunch of dudes going around killing each other all of the time. It happens too often, but, they’re still doing the same shit they’ve always done. So when does it become appropriate? Is it approrpiate then? Well, from behind a suit of armor, many young men just want to be chosen. They don’t really care who chooses them, especially female. They will settle for being chosen. Why it’s important that that young man or man can change his armor, get the shield down, pull the mask up, and see what he’s looking at—because he has some responsibilities in mating, too. He’s got some responsibilities in that relationship.
Ditt: After he’s chosen. Beyond being chosen.
DA: Before he’s got to allow himself to be chosen; and make sure that who he’s getting chosen by, is going to be competent and capable of the things he needs in his life. What he needs is someone who can take care of his offspring when he’s out busy, let’s say farming, or hunting. You know, these guys go out hunting, they’re going hunting for weeks and months at a time. No knight in shining armor can get back to the ranch or castle soon enough so this person who was once the damsel in distress—Now she better kick some ass. And he needs to know that she can kick some ass. So he now needs to take the armor off and go do the other things that life is gonna expect from him. He needs to know that who he is involved with, is a fully competent, and capable, mature woman, who doesn’t get herself in trouble. Who doesn’t get things to make herself in distress. Who takes care of her own problems. Who doesn’t come to him with simple situations because she doesn’t feel like doing things. Who doesn’t dump the difficult things in life on him, while he’s going out doing the difficult things in life, also. They need to form a partnership. So he needs to get the armor off, so he can see her clearly. And while he’s doing that, she gets to see him more clearly. And, whether or not she wants to make the choice she’s getting ready to make. And so as he removes the armor, she gets to know him better; he gets to know her better; and they decide how far they want to go with this thing. One of the problems that, in the metaphor of all of it, is people are making these decisions way too hastily. Way too quick! By the time he gets the armor off, and—it’s nice, ‘cause a lot of women are encouraging men to take the armor off. And the men are taking the armor off, but they’re taking the armor off without knowing the woman. Because, you can’t take the armor off, if you don’t know that she can take care of herself.
Ditt: In what way, by what do you mean that women are encouraging men to take the armor off. Because, if we’re in the nightclub, you know, where the men are — being the knights in shining armor … That’s where it’s not happening, I suppose, right? That’s where—
DA: If you take the armor—If you’re a man, or a young man, and you take the armor off in a nightclub, you have been poorly mentored. You have not had the right kind of older men around you, to tell you, ‘No, you leave that shit on. You leave that shit on all night. You do not take it off. And while you have that on, you better be watching her. Watch her!’ Because you may not want to take it off at the end of the night. Sex may not be worth exposing yourself. Because that’s the decision you have to make. It’s like, it may not be worth it. Now I know, some younger men, they think that sex is the goal. It’s like, well sex is fun. Sex is entertaining; sex should be enjoyed! It should be like enlivening and invigorating, and … You know, if you get to know each other a little better, that’s cool too! If you don’t, that’s cool too! But, it’s not the end of it all, and it puts you in a very vulnerable state. Who are you being vulnerable with? Do you know them well enough to expose yourself? If you don’t, and you expose yourself—you’re gonna have to deal with that kind of vulnerability. It’s like, okay. I know most of the time when they use the word vulnerability, what most people say, and these are the sickest people: Is they say, they really want to see you cry. If somebody’s telling you to be vulnerable because they want to see you cry, don’t talk to them ever again! Because it’s a very sick thing to ask. It’s not a healthy thing—and they’ll come up with things like, ‘You know, vulnerability is really strength.’ And they’ll make it sound like something. Vulnerability is something that happens, crying is something that happens—after you’ve been injured! These people that want to see you cry, they think the crying is the vulnerability. But what they’ve ignored, is that you came to them injured, and they want you to expose your injuries.
Ditt: See I haven’t; I guess I haven’t known those kinds of people intimately. But I can sort of imagine it; I can imagine them, because I know those types of movies, that are like aww, where there’s a part where it’s like, oh it maybe makes you wanna cry, or whatever. (Laughs) I just noticed that I try to avoid saying that it made me cry, like: It didn’t make me cry. But …
DA: You get old enough, and all kinds of stuff makes you cry. ‘Cause you have like a big long past, and you’ve been injured a lot, and so … A lot of things percolate to the surface, like, really at inopportune times.
Ditt: Well like, But I guess those types, those things that make you cry, but they’re like … If good art ever makes you cry or something like that, right?. Where something, where it’s … something very human. And then, so I can imagine like, walking away from that and saying like, that’s a good movie, and ‘I’m gonna make those moments happen more often.’ Or maybe that’s like—That could be a pathological result of seeing a moment like that? Is that what you’re sort of saying, the people you should get away from. The people that want to see you cry?
DA: Yeah. You’re sitting here, you’re having a regular dialogue. Maybe you’re friendly, maybe you’re getting to know each other. And maybe it’s too soon. Or maybe it’s just a part of a discussion. If my interest is in seeing you cry, I’m a little perverted. You know, for me it would be like that Sarah McLaughlin, Arms of the Angel … Because I’ve known a whole bunch of dead drug addicts. And the song’s about her brother, who died in a hotel room, and bla bla bla. And so, since I have that background of knowing actual dead people; that song comes on, and the sweetness of her voice just resonates inside my body, and all the sorrow that goes along with that. And so, but people—If you’re having a conversation and I don’t know you very well, and all of a sudden I’m trying to get you to perform for me, it’s like: Do you really want to know all of my pain? Well … I was speaking with the congressman from San Luis Obispo County’s partner. And she was going into this whole vulnerability thing. And I said, well, do you ever ask him how angry he is? I mean, you want him to express his emotions. Do you ever say like, hey what is it about being a congressman of the county that really pisses you off? Like when people—what do people do, when you’re trying to get bills passed and stuff that … you just want to kill ‘em? Do you ever ask him to express the rage that he feels when somebody undermines his authority and keeps him from making things better for his constituency? She goes, ‘Oh no! I don’t want to see how angry he is!’ It’s like, that person, you shouldn’t have emotional conversations with that person.
Ditt: With her, this woman that wants to see him cry, but not wants to see him angry.
DA: Because she wants to see him cry, she only wants to see one feeling! She doesn’t want him, she doesn’t want to know what’s going on with him. She wants to see him perform this one act. What she’s not interested in, is the amount of pain he goes through, day in, and day out, dealing with all of the things he has to deal with, in a man in his position, and what that actually takes to go to work every day, with people who are arguing against him, for things that are reasonable, to benefit the county that he represents. And how frustrating that is, when, because they have another agenda to build a freeway or whatever their agenda would be. She doesn’t want to see all those feelings. She just wants to see him cry. And what I’m saying is, that’s a very perverted way to relate to somebody.
Ditt: It’s selfish! Right, it’s like—
DA: And they think it’s for his own good, and it’s not. It’s your voyeurism that you’re satisfying.
Ditt: Yeah. Selfish, yeah.
DA: You just want to see something. And the sad part about it is: How many days a week does that person come home, and get ignored, because those feelings aren’t being noticed, the way that he expresses them every day.
Ditt: Right. But so that’s, that’s, that’s a time where it’s good to have the shining armor. If people are trying to get you, they want to see you cry.
DA: Leave it on!
Ditt: Okay. So where is it happening that … That’s one instance where … the women … people are asking for the armor to come off. But the armor should come off, you’re saying.
DA: Yeah, I am saying that.
Ditt: So where is that?
DA: So say I get to know somebody that I’m dating. I get to know ‘em pretty well. They are self-contained. They have their own feelings about things. They don’t set me up for conversations that turn into arguments over issues. You know, if they ask my opinion about something, it doesn’t turn it into a discussion that they’re arguing over. They don’t try to find ways to make my opinions correct or incorrect. They don’t set me up for fights and arguments and things like that. That person is mentally safe. So, what comes up; what do you think of … Here it’ll be fun. I’m saying this for fun, so nobody react: You know, what do you think about Donald Trump? So let’s say I love Donald Trump; I think he’s a great guy, he’s a great businessman, he makes great business decisions. I come up with this whole list of honoring and respecting and validating the life and existence of Donald Trump. And if they turn that into a how dumb I am and how stupid I am, and they want to get into slaughtering Donald Trump’s character, they’re revealing something about themselves. And I need to pay attention. And the armor needs to stay on. Because it’s guaranteed that they’re going to treat me that way. That as soon as I don’t meet their approval, I’m gonna get wiped out. Just like they did when they didn’t like Donald Trump; as soon as I do something they don’t like, that doesn’t meet their approval, I have a difference of opinion, they’re going to do it to me. Leave the armor on. If they go, ‘Wow, you know, let me give that some more thought. I never really thought of any attributes Donald Trump might have. You seem to have named a few. Let’s go look at some evidence, and see if anything you said was true.’ And they go and they do their own homework and they find something out. If they answer like that, I go like, ‘Okay, man, I’m gonna take one of these metal gloves off.’ Don’t take it all off at one time! ‘Okay, I can take the helmet off now.’ It’s like, and then take a little bit off. Make yourself a little more vulnerable. And while you’re doing that, what you want to find out is, if you want to have a mature relationship, while you’re making yourself vulnerable, are they setting themselves up to protect you? Because it’s a reasonable request for a man, to ask fo ra woman’s protection if he is going to become vulnerable. If you’re dealing with an adult woman. Honey, I’ve got to go to the hospital. While I’m at the hospital, these things still need to get done. Can you do ‘em? Or will you do ‘em? They’re my responsibility, I know. But I need you to take care of my responsibilities, because I’m gonna be vulnerable and not available. And she’s one of those kinds of women, who will say, ‘Of course I will. Because we’re partners, and when you can’t do it, the normal things you do, I’ll take on the responsibilities, and I’ll take care of ‘em. Just like you would for me, if I wasn’t available.’ It’s like, oh! This person could be a partner; I could be a partner with. Well, when you get to the point where they could be a partner—you could take the armor off.
Ditt: So that’s pretty, that’s actually a pretty—so the knight in shining armor is actually not looking that bad! Because there, you need the armor at the beginning, and then you; and you just need to vet the princess, or what-not, the damsel, so to speak, and then you can take the armor off. So .. maybe the damsel in distress part is the more … And even the damsel in distress part, when you say, that has its function, because the woman is creating something for the man to expose himself with, prove himself with; but maybe that part is less important?
DA: Well hopefully what’s going on is, well there’s got to be a female counterpart here. She’s learning from what’s going on, too. This is not two people who are growing in a void. They’re partners, they’re becoming partners. They’re making agreements, they’re discussing things. And they’re coming to conclusions about how this thing’s gonna operate; how we’re gonna function together. I’m better at this, I’ll do that; you’re better at that; you do that. We’ll just figure it out; you’re better at this, but you don’t have time, so I’ll do it—bla bla bla. You know it’s like, my father used to … say, one of my father’s phrases was this: He’ll go like, ‘Well what kind of man would worry about that?’ ‘Cause in the late 60s, early 70s, there was the, whatever was going on at the time. And a lot of men were coming … Things were being said, like ‘What kind of man would do the dishes?’ Things like that, stereotypical, things that would become stereotypical later. Archie Bunker was happening. And my father would say, ‘Well what kind of man would worry about that? What kind of man would worry about who does the dishes?’ It’s not a very good measurement of it. And he helped make things clear, like: some things aren’t the measure of a man. But these, but when we’re younger men, when we’re less mature men, we don’t have good mentors; we use unrealistic measurements, for what being a man is. And that’s why you got to be careful, and having good mentors is important. Because a good mentor will tell you, take the armor off incrementally. Not let you go, ‘Oh it’s time for sex; I think I’ll rip all the armor off.’ It’s like, which may be a very insidious way to get yourself killed
!
Ditt: I’m reading the definition for damsel: ‘A young, unmarried woman, formerly, especially applied to one of gentle birth; maid. A shoe-shaking projection on a …’ Okay I think it’s that first definition we’re looking at.' Yeah, yeah.
DA: And then so, in the class system of the times, where there was people, there was young women who were of gentle birth, they were probably associated with a castle. Probably a castle that the knight in shining armor was closely associated with also. But, in the Man-to-Men weekend, one of the things I like to talk about is, once these damsels become responsible, they move up another level, and if they’re not, entirely, just for the sake of the discussion, let’s say she then becomes a queen. It’s like, well it’s a big fat mistake for you to stay a knight if she becomes a queen. And if you don’t; if a man does not mature into, in the mind about what his position is, and he remains a knight, he lives a life of servitude to the woman. Which will end up, either depressed; he’ll be depressed all the time; he will not be invigorated in his attitude and outlook on things; he will just do things from a listless point of duty, and he won’t have any real passion for it. But if he assumes the next level, of becoming a king, it’s an amazing thing, because you know what that queen will do? If he takes that armor of? When it comes time to put the armor back on, she’ll help him. And if he goes down in battle, and he’s injured, and he can’t run the kingdom, she will run it! She won’t go replace him with another king. She won’t go find another replacement. She has a sense of being a partner with him, and in his absence or in his illness or whatever, she has a duty and a responsibility to be strong, to be steadfast, to be unwavering in the partnership that makes them a kingdom! And I know some asshole’s gonna say, ‘Hey what about a queen-dom!?’ But you know what I mean! Because the immature people are the ones who say things like, ‘What about a queen-dom.’ We’re talking about metaphor and myth here. So we need to grow the hell up and get out of that stuff, too. And this new style of declaration from Disney! Because that’s the other comedy of all of that. This shit’s coming out of Walt Disney World! Can we say Disney and what that is?
Ditt: Yeah, well what is?
DA: The happiest place on earth—for children! It’s for children! The entire makeup of the entire thing is for children! And let’s talk about—if you want to get serious adult about that … So why are they using their media to exploit their access to children? Let’s talk about what kind of people that makes them? I love Disney; I love everything about Disney; I go to Disneyland, all that. But if we’re going to let Disney get into politics; it’s like, what about the children? What about the children? ‘Cause that’s who Walt Disney cared about, and they’re destroying a legacy that was super-important for a really long time.
Ditt: I mean that’s, a little bit more about that Snow White, thing, right? ‘Cause, I mean the idea with that is that Disney, over the—lately, has been remaking movies, according to this more modern, right, sensibility. I don’t know, I’m almost like, I’m wincing, at like: Am I, or are we, going overboard in political—the politic, hot topic, but I don’t know. I guess we could go into that hot topic, but more important, does it relate to our, is it serving our damsel in distress, knight in shining armor discussion? Are we …
DA: Well, is it? Is it serving what we’re trying to get it to serve? Is, when we … Do we have the studies available to show that, if we make a cartoon into multicolored cartoon, that it’s … Out of culture. I mean, I could see, if I got something, and it’s a whole cultural cartoon, that a whole culture is validated. I can see how that would be enlivening, enriching, and make a person feel that their culture has value and belongs in the structure. The social structure. But to take one character, and you shade it with color? And to tell ourselves as adults, to overdramatize the impact that’s gonna have, I think is a maturity issue. I think there’s an immaturity behind that, it’s not gonna produce what we’re saying it’s going to produce. Because first of all, how many people are gonna see it? How many people are gonna see it? If I’m a little kid; if you don’t sit there and tell me, ‘Hey did you see that that happened? This thing was this color instead of that color? And that means that you’re included!’ You know, you’re basically telling ‘em that they’re not included. Until that happened. So until they make the color of the cartoons right, you’re telling this kid that he was never included. And they take it that way. They may have never known that. I did not know that I lived in a mixed neighborhood until like I was in seventh grade. I didn’t know that like, the kids nextdoor, were different, until somebody told me they were different. It’s like, oh wow! And I didn’t know, that like the mom and dad were a mixed marriage, until the end of the 60s. It’s like, I didn’t know! I lived in East San Diego. And it’s like, she was Mexican, he was black. And it was okay to say Mexican and Black at the time! And, but I didn’t know that, why does he have an afro, and he’s got wavy hair. They’re brothers. Nobody was going around going, ‘Hey!’ Nobody addressed it. But I was the little redhead kid next to ‘em. It’s all in the pictures; it’s all sitting there. We didn’t know until the adults taught it. The adults taught the difference to the kids. And then we started to learn; we taught these kids how to be mad.
Ditt: How to be offended.
DA: Now it’s offended!
Ditt: Yeah, what did I … I thought, I actually as thinking about, I thought about something I think I heard you say at a Man-to-Men weekend, because I got into an online some debate, some debate about the Middle East, or something. And somebody came on; I was joking that they were a little Trumpy with me. Like ‘cause they were just—they weren’t civil. They were just like, oh, you’re a fucking child … You’re a child, your point of view is stupid. You know. And I definitely played with being offended. And then I remembered, I think you said something about like how, if you are offended, you are just giving your power away. And it was like, oh yeah. I don’t need to be offende—There’s no … It’s not mature to be offended!
DA: It is actually a willful act of submission.
Ditt: Okay! (Laughing) yeah!
DA: Is how I put it. I don’t use the … I don’t believe that anybody has the power to give their power away. But, you are willfully submitting. And, there’s a very interesting manipulation in doing it. It’s very manipulative to submit, especially in a verbal argument. It’s a strategy in a physical argument, so that you don’t get killed. But in a verbal discussion, because right now, it is an act of dominance to submit. Because to be offended, accesses you to a different authority. He who cries ‘offended’ first wins! It’s a very feminine quality, to be offended. It’s not necessarily, in a masculine sense, to surrender, is an intelligent decision at times, based on self-preservation. But to be offended emotionally, you first have to make up the right emotions. And be clear: All of the emotions are made up!
Ditt: I think that I could see that, but it might be good for you to talk me through it, even. I can know that I felt some emotions when I was getting offended, and then …
DA: As we do!
Ditt: And so I was like, it was a little bit like slamming a door. It was all online, so there was no door to slam, so to speak. But you know, click “Block” or whatever.
DA: Cancel!
Ditt: There’s something going on there. And then I realized it, and tried to circle back a little, but it was kind of like, oh yeah, that was …
DA: Okay, so let’s pretend that the brain is attached to a nervous system.
Ditt: Uh-huh, okay (laughing)
DA: And that the nervous system is attached to every part of the body. Ears, tongue, eyes, … Everywhere else. Whatever other ones. So … And to emote, is a result of receiving information through the nervous system. Because emotion is a decision! It’s a judgement.
Ditt: Yeah, yeah.
DA: So, something happens. Johnny the Knob says something, and all of a sudden, I say something back. Based on, responding to Johnny the Knob. And then he says something back. I make a judgement about what he said. I can either make it personal to myself, or I can see it as, he’s revealing something about himself. If Johnny the Knob is just being a knob, then he looks like a jerk. If I make it personal about me, which is not necessarily the best thing to do, but it went into my ears, and my ears are attached to my brain, and my brain is moving information around into all of the different places that information moves around. I’m making judgements about that information; deciphering it into meaning of some kind. And then I decide, what will my emotional response be? I could be offended, which means I have been attacked. Something has come from the outside in.
Ditt: I remember feeling a lot of fear before I got, you know, as I was leading … I mean—I know fear had a lot to do with it.
DA: Or … And that might be … the tone of voice that he used when he said what he said. It may not be the actual words that he said. It might have been in the tone. Because we can be manipulated with voice tone. It’s not what you said, it’s how you said it. Yeah; well you when you say something and it sounds really loud and aggressive, I think that I’m in danger, and if I think I’m in danger, I’m gonna get afraid. And after I get afraid, if I think I’m scared enough, I’m gonna get ready to fight, flight, or freeze. Well, whichever one you chose, if you didn’t freeze, so now you’re in fight-or-flight. A lot of people forget the freeze part. But, so now am I gonna fight this guy? Sometimes in the more civil days, sometimes it sounds like an argument. So now you’re going back and forth. (Makes two differnt, alternating arguing-person sounds … la-la-la-la-la) Someone’s trying to win. We’re competing now. We’re in a fight. And then, at a point of, I’m going to surrender, but I don’t want to lose—the way you get out of not-losing, or admitting your loss … is to be offended. ‘Well, now I’ve been offended.’ I’ve been arguing, arguing, arguing, arguing, and now the last moment of, where I should be accepting defeat, accepting loss … Or, because it’s not so serious that I’m in danger … so I’m not gonna run away … It’s like ‘Ohhh!’ I’ll just cry offended. And offended actually pulls a win out of the loss, because in the state we’re in right now as a culture, being offended is an advantage. Because it takes you out of responsibility for every time you were responding like a prick to that guy before you got offended! You know, you probably weren’t at your very best behavior, leading up to being offended. You might have said some things that, didn’t shine the greatest light on your genius and intellect. And then when it got bad enough, it was like ohhhh. You know, you were in too far! Everybody saw you!
Ditt: That was—The fear was all around my need or wanting to look good. My whole online presence is this whole look, or whatever. And it was like, oh, I don’t feel, you know, sophisticated here anymore, you know?
DA: Yeah! And then it’s like, oh! And then you get offended. And it’s like—Does that mean that they were being offensive? Well if you were on the phone or online, you physically cannot be offended.
Ditt: Right.
DA: Like, if you’ve got the dictionary and you look at offended; you physically can’t get offended with words on a telephone. You can egotistically get offended.
Ditt: Right, that sounds more like—
DA: It’s like, oh you hurt my feelings! It’s like ohhh! ‘Cause, what you said, I’m feeling like this about myself. So in my self-centeredness, I don’t feel good about myself, because what you’re saying right now, doesn’t promote that in me. Like, oh crap! And now, we have raised an entire culture, in the last 10 years, of you can manage people with words! They could, they have it measurable … Facebook, or any of those platforms, they can send out things, and they have—they can guess, within percentages, about elections, just by saying something bad about, or good about, somebody. And it’s like—And they have like statistics to measure it with! And it’s like, ohh, they want to control it. ‘Cause I’ll bite, and I’ll involve myself with it. And I’ll say, Trump is this, or Trump is that. And the crappy thing about it is, I have no way to know if it’s true.
Ditt: Mm-hmm.
DA: I mean, I don’t watch the news much, unless somebody guides me directly to something. But, I don’t even know if I know all the letters. I know, Fox News and MSNBC … Somebody’s the good guy and somebody’s the bad guy, and stuff, or whatever. And it’s like … And these guys come up, and they say who the horrible people are, and who the not-horrible people are. And, they’re gathering their information from the media, and they’re formulating these opinions, and they’re getting in passionate arguments, and saying crappy things about people — that they’ve never met! But they heard it on one of these stations that has a vested interests, in you saying crappy things about somebody, because they’re trying to sway the attention of, you know, I want you to love Putin this week, and the other guy the next week, and .. whoever you’re supposed to like or dislike—to manage their own investments. And it works!
Ditt: I mean, now this feels like … This is trying to think very big. Like … I kind of think about with Man-to-Men, or what … like a lot of times, we try to think, like about what we can manage. You know like, I can manage myself. It’s like the Jordan Peterson you know, make your bed, and then you can go, maybe then we’ll take your opinion seriously about the whole greater world.
DA: Right.
Ditt: I notice myself, like as I try to … So like the knight in shining armor .. is useful conduct for you as you walk out into the world and have a relationship. But when we start getting … I admit like, my brain gets overwhelmed a little when I try to think of the implications for the wider society. Does yours too, or …
DA: It’s how am I gonna use the information? Because, right now, we are so — And I think this is super-important! Because I do it on my own podcast; you can go to the Man-to-Men, and I’m putting things out on Instagram now. ‘Cause my main drive right now, through meditation, is: Think for yourself! Memes are so popular right now. And, passing on … You send a meme on your podcast, you know. Then, all of a sudden, I send the meme on. And somewhere down the meme road, people are arguing, or saying, ‘This is so great what you said.’ And they’ll give the person credit for a meme that is the 12,000th time it got sent. Rather than, okay, it gave you an idea. The meme gave you an idea. Good. Did you come up with any more ideas from it? Because, the only thing that makes you human is your ability to create. So if you don’t take these good ideas, or bad ideas, and take responsibility for having the idea, whatever condition you have it in, and take responsibility for what you turn it into, you’re a puppet! You’re just a puppet. So even, we’re doing what we’re doing right now. And I’m never doing anything, so somebody can say, ‘Mitch said.’ It’s like, take it. And however you use it, take responsibility for how you use it. But it’s like … There’s a couple of inst—It’s like gun control. It’s like, they want to blame the gun! Not, let the person be responsible for how they use it. Or, 12-step people. They want to blame the drug. And they actually personify drugs and alcohol. ‘It’s cunning, baffling and powerful!’ It is none of those things! It doesn’t have those characteristics, qualities, or abilities. But, they’ve sold; a organization has sold a product that has helped millions, by creating an idea that says, this is cunning, baffling, and powerful. And it has no ability on its own. And it’s not until that person takes responsibility, that they’re able to change.
Ditt: Yeah. What is cunning, baffling, and powerful is like you, when you’re, when you have decided you’re gonna take a drink or something … I guess, yeah
DA: Yeah, really, Or what’s insane is, I know this is gonna hurt me, and you do it anyway. And that’s very adolescent. It’s when you first put on the armor. I’m gonna put on this armor, I’m gonna put myself at risk. That’s dumb. That’s dumb! For a species that is geared around survival, it’s dumb to sit there and go, ‘I’m gonna go and put on this armor.’ But we do it! That’s how we make armies. It’s like, ‘Hey! Go put on this armor; go put yourself at risk.’ They go like, ‘F Yeah!’ And they generate this kind of egotism because they’re predisposed to it because they’re trying to grow.
Ditt: And harness it, yeah.
DA: They’re trying to take responsibility for themselves, they’re trying to become more than … In some sort of way. And what we’re talking about on this podcast, is, and then what? Because, in order to socialize, you’ve got to be able to, do what you’ve got to do in the armor, which is good! Skills you should have. But you’ve got to also be able to take that armor off. And the way that things are going now, I really want to support women, to be partners with men, by pointing out the qualities and characteristics of women—adult, mature women—that have nothing to do with being damsels; that have nothing to do with indulging in the things that distress them; and have everything to do with being partners. To someone who is willing to put their life on the line for them. If I’m gonna put my life on the line for you, I want you to stand next to me. And so, I’m trying to get to this place of, there’s the TV series Vikings, of Ragnar and Agatha. Ragnar gets sick, he gets hurt; Agatha is sitting there with her shield and her sword and a spear. Full responsibility for his well-being, the responsibility of the village, the responsibility of … She includes her partner, in what she is taking responsibility to protect. Not, ‘Fuck it, he’s useless to me now.’ That’s what commitment of marriage is. Is the woman, includes the man, in her realm, her scope, of responsibility. Not, she doesn’t serve him because she’s submissive to him. She serves him because he’s a partner. Just like he serves her, because they’re partners. Because everyone knows, whether you like to agree with it or not, that men die younger. We get injured more often than women do, in all aspects of life!
Ditt: Yeah.
DA: All the stats say it; all the stats prove it. We take the nastiest jobs; we’re climbing in the sewers, we’re climbing up on the freaking towers. We’re building the society that gave ‘em the freedom. And then we’re getting slammed for the freedom that we gave them! And what’s cool right now is, you’re getting to hear this statement a lot: Privilege doesn’t recognize itself. And so the people who have benefitted from the privilege that has been provided for them by the men who built this culture; they don’t recognize it. Because it was given to them! They stepped into it, and they’re still going way too far back in the past, to justify taking what was built for them. With no appreciation.
—
DA: So, appropriate to take the armor off, and it really is an indication of the partnership that you’re forming, with, just for the sake of the metaphor, the myth: The damsel in distress is now becoming a responsible adult; she takes care of her own problems. She does not live her life in a way that continually puts her in a state of distress. She handles her own business, so to speak. And as the knight sees this, appreciates her newfound freedom that she’s created for herself by the responsible adult behavior—he starts shedding the armor. And he starts noticing that, the freedom that he’s experiencing being with this woman! And all the things that she’s capable of and competent of and has the desire to do—so that they can be together. And she wants to get to know more about him, so she makes gestures, that make it apparent that it makes good sense for him to remove his armor. She makes it safe: mentally, psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, for him to remove the armor. It’s a sensible thing to do. She minimizes the risk because of how she treats him. How she behaves for him. And, even to the point where, metaphorically, as he removes pieces of the armor, she takes care of the armor! She doesn’t just let him cast it aside. She knows that that armor has a place in their life together, in the partnership; it’s not something that comes between them; it’s a tool necessary for their partnership. It’s important that he has the armor; it’s just not appreciated to be on all the time. And so, maybe she polishes it up, and has a little place in the corner for it to be. And as he removes more and more of the armor, and she gets to know him more and more, and he gets to know her more and more, he’s capable of asking her to take the responsibilities … that she is skilled at and capable of, of participating like an adult in the risk-taking, the protecting of the children, the fixing-repairing things around the house … All of the things that a man can do, a woman could do! And they’re doing it as in a partnership; not as a role assigned from some cultural ideas so that the partners don’t have to talk. “You do this and you do that; men do this and women do that.” They’re just forming a partnership! But the armor is still present; it just doesn’t have to be on all the time. And it’s not an enemy to the relationship; it’s a tool for the partnership.
Ditt: So these are kind of like things that a man should be looking for in a partner; and maybe that a woman should be aspiring to be in a partner. You’re talking a little bit about those things.
DA: Yeah, they’re responsibilities. If a man wants to provide more intimacy in the relationship, he’s going to have to take more pieces of the armor off. And if she wants that to make sense; she’s going to have to take care of the armor. Because it has to be available! He still needs to be a warrior when it’s time for warrior-ing. Like, some days it’s killing time! And, they understand that as partners, it’s an average communication. It’s not an egoic communication. It’s not like, ‘You’re the warrior! You’re the ruh-ruh-ruh!’ It’s like, we need to have this around. We need to have bows and arrows, or rifles, or pistols or whatever. Because sometimes, it’s that time. And, she knows it, he knows it. Same is true is if he gets sick. She knows that she’s going to be expected to do some of the warrior-ing, because of his condition. Willfully, as partners, and it’s a conversation that they can have. She will have been trained in the art of it, because that’s what adults would have done. It’s not like in the pristine little world of whatever they’re showing on TV next, Native Americans or whatever, the women don’t fight. They fight, and they’re fierce! And women today need to be that way; they want to be recognized in that way. So they should be skilled in the art of war. And as partners, they become a very formidable force, and all they have to trust is that, around her, I don’t have a reason to put this armor on. That, the way that we treat each other as partners, there’s never a reason for me to put this armor on to defend myself against her. And that should show up in character. And if that’s—if you’re not there yet, then you’re not there yet. That’s what you work towards. And that comes from mental, emotional discipline! I’m not going to accidentally cut you with my knife. That knife might be your tongue. I’m not going to accidentally say stupid shit to hurt your feelings. I’m wouldn’t say anything to hurt your feelings, because I love you! It’s not fair fighting; it’s not something we accept as tolerable because it just happens. It’s like, no! There’s limits to it. We’re adults, and we don’t allow that! There are people who actually can live this way. We just lost the expectation, because the knights who keep their armor on, and the damsels who still are on distress are the ones making the rules! And so we’ve promoted, through Dr. Phil and Oprah, a bunch of dysfunctional relationship behavior that is totally unnecessary. Totally unnecessary! And actually, provided as a reasonable expectation between adults. And now we have people who are getting their emotional feelings hurt. They’re getting offended, they’re getting all these things. Because they’re still thinking and acting like children. Even over things that are obviously ridiculous. Obviously ridiculous, and they’re still acting hurt! Pretending that they’re hurt, which is manipulative. And in that arena of manipulation, it proves that that person’s not trustworthy--keep the armor on. Keep the armor on, because it’s total manipulation! It’s an attempt of leverage in whatever war they’re trying to fight. It’s an attempt at leverage! Because they want something, and they want you to provide for it. Probably in a deserved—they think they deserve it or they’re owed it, and they’re afraid that it’s against your will. And so they wanted to make demands for it. Or create a political arena that says they should get it for nothing.
Ditt: Is, I guess—I’m trying to—What does it look like when you hear people who have … ‘Cause we talk about the knight in shining armor, it’s like, in the night club. They’re kind of extreme examples. What’s like a more down-to-earth example, when you see people who have been, you know, affected by that, and are living that. You know, trying to live with the armor, or trying to live as a damsel. Like, how is that showing up, how have you seen it? Or have you tried it yourself?
DA: I think that they still have self—they have a lot of self-talk. They have a lot of promotion of … self-affirmations. They still have expectations of deserving, self-worth. And they’re still thinking in terms of those things. And simultaneously, not realizing that that entire mode of thinking is also why they’re not fully getting the things done in their life, to have the kind of life that they want. You can’t really sit around thinking about yourself all the time, and do your job. And so, on one hand, they’re being involved in groups and organizations, and stuff that is promoting a high level of self-talk. Or they’re involved with, you know, since it’s near and dear to my heart, chemical dependency stuff, and they get stuck in this self-evaluation mode all the time, and they’ve got a reason why, for everything, that has to do with some type of dysfunction. And, you know, they don’t show up for work every day. As though the fact that, you know, my grandmother slapped me has something to do with why I didn’t, you know, take the garbage out. So it’s—those would be the indications, as to whether or not that other person is ready for it. Or, that they think that they’re supposed to work these things out—in a relationship. Like they can’t work it out until they get into a relationship, and now we’re going to work out my self-esteem issues. By me demanding that you treat me a certain way. Well if I’m demanding that you treat me a certain way, I’m already out of control. Way out of control—of myself! Because if I think it’s up to me to tell you how to treat me, and I’m not leaving you because of how you treat me in the first place, I’m already operating fully in the dysfunction of, that I’m trying to get you to fix for me. Like I shouldn’t have to tell you how to treat me—or I’ll leave you! That shouldn’t be the discussion! There shouldn’t be a discussion! It’s like, ‘Oh, you treat people like shit! I’m not, I’m not coming back!’ Not, elongated discussion of trying to work out a relationship issue when you’ve only been dating for a week. Or two. And pretending like, we’re going to last forever! It’s like, you’re supposed to date to get to know the person. And if they don’t qualify, they don’t qualify! If their character is not what you want to be around, or they show signs of being rude, being negative, being unavailable—or whatever it is! Whatever name you want to put on it. And if you don’t want to be around it, you don’t go out on another date!
Ditt: Right, okay.
DA: We’ve turned it into this, every time a man and a woman goes out, it’s supposed to be—so that you can get married and have children! Instead of, so that you can get to know the other person, and see what kind of person they are, and see if you want to go out a second time. Or a third time or a fourth time. It’s like, give it like—You know, in a really good relationship, you know, give it like ten dates. Don’t have sex until 25 dates. Because, once you start having sex, you’re not thinking clearly. You’re not thinking clearly! It’s just, everything gets crazy and stupid. But who wants to wait 25 dates. That’s like, out of the question!
Ditt: Yeah.
DA: I just made up the 25 dates just so that anybody listening—I just made up randomly 25 dates. It’s not a formula! It’s not magic or anything; it’s not the number. But, just understand, if you’re just there to have sex though—be there to have sex! Give it your best, have a good time, enjoy yourself! But don’t put a bunch of other expectations on it besides that.
Ditt: Yeah.
DA: Definitely don’t expect that you’re gonna get smarter once you have sex. ‘Cause sex doesn’t fix anything. It doesn’t make anything better; it’s just fun. It’s like, people get all crazy when it comes to sex. They just imagine weird things, and they think that, sex will make it into something else! It’s like, well, hopefully it’ll make it fun!
Ditt: Well as you said, it’s the biological imperative.
DA: Yeah. Yeah, you should want to!
Ditt: Well, I guess … You know … Hmm. .. Okay, so we’ve got a lot of knights in shining armor who could use more seasoning, and … so we’re talking about how they can be more mature. And also, we’ve got a lot of damsels, and they’re also looking for ways to be more mature. I don’t know if this would help, or add to the discussion; but like … When you and your wife met, how many of these — Did you go through something like what you just said? Were you ready? Or did you luck out; were you not ready, but you just sort of—you know.
DA: We had the benefit of living 50 miles apart. So, some of it’s luck. Some of it’s laziness. I think that’s part of what benefits—the distance helped. So that when we were together, we actually had to try. So, it wasn’t like, when you live really close, sometimes you just, fabricate this idea of obligation for being together. My wife is a very productive businesswoman who is very creative, and very adept at making plans, following through—she stays busy. She has her own interests, and they’re not negotiable interests. They’re not subject to approval or disapproval. They’re not part of a conversation in the relationship. They’re not part of the partership. Her interests are not part of our partnership. I’m the same way. I have interests that I have; they’re not part of our partnership. They’re not like: ‘How is this, and what about that? And bla bla bla. Did you bla bla bla?’ There’s something she does, I have no interest in. And I don’t pretend that I’m interested. I don’t make, it’s — One of the things we say; she gets on a computer, and she can do things with a computer that I can’t do. And she tries to talk me through it; I have, absolutely … I’m getting all ADD on her; I start distracting, and pushing buttons, and making comments, and noises, and .. Things that somebody that’s not interested in … would do! And that’s the same thing if, I had this conversation going on very long with my wife — she would probably have a computer turned on, looking at her cell phone, and texting somebody. You know, have a few different devices going on, because she’s not interested in this stuff. She loves that I do it; she would tell people that I’m good at what I do. She would even listen to the podcast when we were done. Just, but to sit here and do what we’re doing right now—not interested. And, we’re honest about that. We don’t sit there, and pretend that we’re interested in everything the other person is doing. And have discussions over whether or not we should or shouldn’t be. It’s like—I’m not. I’m not. And she’s the same way. She’s like, I’m not—philosophy? No. No. I’m not interested in it.
Ditt: Yeah. And so, So it sounds like, though—there were some circumstances involved, but you pretty much were able to play by the recommended rules. ‘Cause I find that even like, you know, you and I, we have some tricks we know, from the Sterling Men’s Weekend. And yet I meet—it seems like most men won’t avail themselves of them. They’ll go the other route. Maybe it’s knight in shining armor; maybe it’s something else. Lack of maturity!
DA: Lack of maturity! I think one of the biggest mistakes that gets made, even in that arena, is that the men will not expose to their women things that are important to them. They’re so, they’re still so immature that they’re more concerned over whether or not she approves or disapproves than conveying to her that, this subject whatever it is, is important to me. It’s like, they don’t take the time to make sure that she understands that what I am talking to you about right now is important to me. It matters to me. And so, I want you to listen. You can give me any kind of feedback you want; but the feedback I get from you, I want you to understand, you are talking about something that’s important to me. I don’t want your opinion about whether or not it should or shouldn’t be. If you want to help me, I’m willing to listen to what kind of help you can give me. But it’s not a discussion of whether or not this should be important to me. I’m just telling you. And men who are learning about taking the armor off; very few get to the point wher ethey take enough of the armor off to admit to their women that there’s shit they do in their lives, things they do in their lives, that are important to them; and if they don’t do them, they will suffer from all kinds of mental and physical illnesses. They will suffer from depressions, they will suffer from anxieties. And they will over-focus on things that are not important to them. And it gets really detrimental, because if a man is not following those things that he’s passionate about, he will want compensation. He will want, if I’m not gonna get to do what—And I don’t care if it’s, go to the bar on Sunday and watch the game, or whatever. If he is not doing something that he is passionate about, he wants to be compensated for that. He’s giving up something important to him.
Ditt: Yup. Yup. That resonates, yeah.
DA: Yeah. And if people aren’t, having reached the level of maturity, where they can express that, and accept that about each other, they’re not very far down the road of that relationship, no matter what. They definitely have not reached the place where they should even be talking very seriously about being married. It’s like—That’s a, if you can’t make this line, we can’t get married. Because if either person has to give up something that is that important to them, marriage should be out of the question. The goal isn’t the marriage; the goal is that the marriage enhances the lives of the people in it.
Ditt: Huh, yeah.
DA: The marriage is created by the attitude, outlook, and behavior of the people in the marriage. Not, the marriage makes them into something; they make the marriage.
Ditt: It’s weird. I think, what I was realizing in that moment … I believe that, I had some notion of marriage, just from like, being a little kid. You know like: ‘Oh, people grow up, they get married.’ Like, most people don’t put much thought into it, because … Because that’s me, being arrogant, looking down at most people. ‘Most people are dumb.’ It’s like, that presumption is underneath. So then I’m like imagining most people going on without having … Having sort of a thin or superficial type of relationship. And kind of what you’re saying is, pretty much marriage requires—if you’re not mature, you maybe shouldn’t get married.
DA: Not maybe.
Ditt: Yeah! There you go.
DA: Because, and we’re seeing it. One of the great things that’s going on, is that men are maturing. And they’re being forced to, and so the dynamics are changing. There is a lot of men in their thirties and forties who have no interest in being married. And there’s nobody making marriage worth it. Because, the idea so far has been that if a man gets a woman, he is, he is experiencing some level of privilege. Some level of grace is being bestowed upon him.
Ditt: A woman’s touch.
DA: It is such an honor that he gets to marry one of those. And, I’m not saying that’s not true. But I am saying, and there’s a whole bunch of other things that go along with it. Once the damsel becomes a queen; it’s like, there is a whole bunch more, that queen has a responsibility for. That if she doesn’t know she has those responsibilities, and she just thinks that everybody is going to keep treating her from a position of her privilege; she’s in for a rude awakening; because she’ll never feel good enough about herself, first of all, because she’s not doing anything to feel good about herself. I was doing a workshop one time, for young men. And, trying to explain the moms, some stuff, about young men, how they work. They used to call it all puberty. Right? When, we just had a more simple lifestyle. We just said, they hit puberty, and they get crazy, and they do crazy stuff, and they break stuff and they bla bla bla. Now we call ‘em criminals.
Ditt: (Loud laughter)
DA: Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer would have been in youth authority for sure. But like moms are, and the women that I was dealing with at the time are, they want to make it about husbands, and how come my husband, and bla bla bla. And what was clear was, these women forgot that they have a responsibility in life, of how they are with men. And if you’re a certain way with men, men are going to respond a certain way. Or not—And they had been convinced in their lifetimes; and these were women that were, close to what my age is now; this is 20 years ago. And they go, how come he has lost interest in sex? And I said, well because, uhh, how much time do you put in being interesting when it comes to sex? And they’re like, what? Because they were convinced by their predecessors, that men just want to have sex! Just like, yeah. Any time that a man wants to have sex, just have sex with him, because he always wants to have sex. Like there’s nothing that sparks a man’s interest; that he just wants to have sex. And these women had lost touch with the fact that, some men think that sex should be interesting. And that that would be something that would maybe prolong his life.
Ditt: Yeah.
DA: Literally … Is him being interested in sex. And it would be one of those things that you might be interested in doing, is keeping sex interesting. Not, just be available for it if he feels like it. And, as you can imagine, it was met with some irresponsibility. Because they had all fooled themselves into beieving that there was nothing required of them except for saying yes. ‘Cause they shouldn’t have to. Because this was coming off a generation of bashing men for objectifying women. Etc., etc., etc. Which is total bullshit, because the makeup industry says that women objectify women. And women objectify themselves, and they turn themselves into things that they’re not—intentionally. And, then they blame men for their behavior, and it was all men’s fault. And now that’s getting turned around pretty well, nowadays. ‘Cause women are very clear, you know, that you see women doing all kinds of things that, they can’t blame men for what they’re doing anymore! Because they’re doing it to themselves, they’re starting to take responsibility for, you know … I mean, I don’t know how many men; I’ve never met—I’ve only met one man, I’ve met one man … Who actually recommended breast augmentation for his woman. I’ve met one. I’ve met a lot more than one woman who’s had that done, because of how she felt about herself. So these women are taking responsibility for it now; their own objectification. So they can feel whatever they want to feel about themselves. But that’s, you know, the last few years. It’s like, and it’s that responsibility that prepares you to be married. It’s like, if you can’t take responsibility for yourself, and how you’re gonna look at things, and how you’re gonna interact—you’re not ready! Because once you get to the point of getting married, you’ve got to be responsible for what a marriage does, and that affects the entire community. How you get along with your partner affects your children, your grandchildren, your neighbor’s children, other couples. When you’re married, other couples look to you to see about being married! It’s like, and that’s a community responsibility you have. You’re not married in a void. You’re always an example. And if you’re not ready to take that responsibility on, you’re not ready to be married. It’s not me and the dams—it’s not the knight and the damsel, riding off, happily ever after. You have to be ready to be exposed. The armor’s gotta come off; the agreements have to be made. You walk through the village together. They see me with her, her with me, and they see how we are. They see how we look at each other; they hear how we talk to each other. And when I’m with the men, they see how I talk about her; they see how she talks about me. And all that stuff is training on being married.
Ditt: That’s interesting in one respect, because it reminds me of how we talk about being on a men’s team, and how we want to be looked at, or like, the way we talk to each other, is supposed to make men want to do that, join a men’s team. Similarly, like, get married. So … Another question that’s coming up; sort of, this links back to that thing that overwhelmed me earlier, this discussion of memes and words and stuff. Is like, throughout this, we’re occasionally talking about the health of the men, or the health of the women, as a community. So where do you get your sense of that? Because that’s I think what, because of course we can … Like … It seems important! Like, even though, I can best control my own behavior, but I’m part of a greater community. So how do you gauge the health of your own community.
DA: Well, the shittiest thing about that is this. And I mean this in seriousness and in fun. I never crave broccoli. Health is that hard. So you have to have some criteria for it. How do you … So hence the question is that hard to answer! It’s like, ‘well first of all, Mark, you’ve got to each broccoli.’ So there’s some things that you have to accept. One of ‘em is, you have to accept, you have a place. There is a place for you. It may not be the place that you wish it was, but you have a place, and you belong there. There’s things that; no matter what the place is in the community, it’s yours. There’s something to do, something that must get done, and it’s your responsibility to do that. The way that you elevate your status is based on your performance in that place. So you’re never stuck in that place. But the only thing that changes is based on your effort in whatever position that you’ve accepted that you have. Men or women! Men or women, the criteria is the same. Women have their place; there’s always an alpha. There’s always an alpha! Because you have to indicate; you have to have a measuring tool, for the place! So somebody’s gotta, somebody’s gotta decide what time dinner is.
Ditt: Okay.
DA: Right? Somebody decides what time dinner is; somebody backs up the person who’s deciding what dinner is; now you have alpha and alpha. Then you’ve got the people who agree with the people who are deciding what time dinner is. Now you’ve got beta. Right?
Ditt: Alright.
DA: And then there’s; then you go to the other end of it. You’ve got to say that there’s some things that aren’t acceptable. Okay, there’s some shit we don’t do around here. And here’s the line. And at some point, if you fall off the line, you’re out! Everybody doesn’t get to participate. If you’re not; and we are strong enough, to draw that line. If the cost is keeping you is too expensive, we’re not going to keep you.
Ditt: Right. That’s a little like the discussion earlier about, whether it’s dealing with, when people get emotional, or … expressing, yeah.
DA: Yeah. It’s like, there’s some things you do; there’s some things you can’t do. I mean like I was, I was taught early on; it normally came with a tap on the leg: ‘You’ve talked enough.’
Ditt: Uh-huh. Yeah.
DA: It’s like, give somebody else a chance. So there’s ways of teaching these things that aren’t necessarily; You know, they aren’t always verbal, they aren’t always humiliating, they aren’t always embarrassing. But, they get called. And then they’re understood. And if it goes over time, they get understood over time. And that’s what we’re struggling with as a culture right now. Is that, we’re changing the rules. But nobody’s willing to take responsibility for what we’re changing them into. We’re willing to say that we’re not going to follow this rule; it’s like what you said about: Snow White isn’t going to be laying around waiting asleep anymore. Well, if you’re eating a poison apple, she didn’t really have a choice about waiting around, now did she? That just tells me that the damsel in distress is talking about the damsel in distress. Here’s a girl in distress who’s trying to make rules, about ridiculous ideas because of her maturity level. I don’t know how old the person was, but she might have been sixty and saying shit like that. Which would have been ridiculous! Because she changed the context of it, to be negative.
Ditt: Right.
DA: So. We’ve got to have the maturity to not only make the rules, but to state what they are. And then there’s got to be the strength to enforce them. It’s like, well that’s ugly. That’s gonna hurt. That’s generally why you’ll see that old people are generally quiet. Because they’ve had to do the things that are very painful to keep communities together.
Ditt: Is your perception of how we’re doing with that … Do you look at your own community, as like a small town or small group? Or do you look at, fuckin’ the country, and what’s on television? Like, how do you — I think this is very much I think a … In the Man-to-Men weekend, you talk about filtering out ‘the bullshit,’ right, ‘the bullshit.’ If you’re talking about the whole country, which part is actually information that you can add to your stash, and which part is ‘the bullshit?’
DA: Well, I am the kind of person, or at least I think I’m the kind of person, when I walk into the room, people know I’m there. I’m not invisible. Whatever energy I’ve got, is noticeable. It’s just, the blessing and curse of who I am. Now, I have to take responsibility of what I want—what do I want people to see? I could come in, and I could be an irresponsible chaotic rabble-rouser. And I enjoy that stuff, I mean, I really do. I like to, when I’m with—
Ditt: Rouse some rabble.
DA: I like to rouse some rabble, for sure! I like to do it; and I have fun doing it, and I enjoy the chaos, and all of those things. But then there’s a time and a place. And that’s a learned behavior, and it comes with maturity. So it’s not always the role of an older gentleman like myself to be rabble-rousing all the time. And I really feel a loss, when I’ve got to leave it up to one of the younger guys to do the rabble-rousing, and be available to settlee things down. ‘Cause that’s what the older men are for. ‘Okay, I know how to calm this down; I sure wish I could’ve been the one to liven it up, but I’ve got to calm it down now.’ So, we’ve all got our place; because I have enough life experience to calm it down, not let it get out of hand. You know, I can normally stop things before somebody gets broken. So we all have that; we all have our place in it. So when I met; When I’m at the place we’re staying: When I walk outside, I’m noticed. But I’ve got to take responsibility for what’s being seen. So when there’s a bunch of little kids around, am I sittin’ out there farting, bellyin’, scratching my balls and picking my nose? ‘Well, nobody knows me there.’ I could take that attitude if I want. Or, I can say, like, ‘You know what. I’m being noticed, people can see.’ I should probably conduct myself in a particular way. So that the young ones know how to conduct themselves outdoors when they go outdoors. ‘Cause they’re just being little kids, being all wild and crazy. I’m not gonna go up to ‘em and go like, ‘Hey don’t pick your nose, kid!’ But if they don’t see me do it, then they get a couple more years on ‘em, and somebody else corrects ‘em, they’ll go, ‘Oh, I’ve seen that before.’
Ditt: So that’s an example of seeing it, in your community; you can sort of see some things in your community.
DA: We’re making a mistake when we have this attitude of, ‘I’m gonna get them to …’ Rather than, how a community works, and how maturity works, is, I’m gonna be an example of. So the responsibility falls on the elders. And what’s great about being an elder, is you have such a wider variety of things you can do. Because young guys are way self-conscious, and only can let certain parts of themselves show, and are afraid you’re gonna catch ‘em in a mistake, and … You know, they’re faking it; they don’t know if they’re doing anything right; and they’re pretending like they know everything and they’re doing everything right. On the inside, an old guy is just chuckling, and waiting for it … And it’s fun! It’s fun being an elder, in the community, and watching it going on. And going, like, ‘I wonder how long he’s gonna get away with this.’ ‘Cause you know it’s coming down. You know, it’s not gonna hold up. And you have enough years to know it’s not gonna hold up. I was at a drug rehab, and I was talking to one of the counselors. The counselor said, ‘la la la’ and I said ‘la la’ and they go, ‘You don’t know that.’ They told me that: ‘You don’t know that.’ And I looked at her, and I was feeling particularly feisty that day, and I go, ‘You wanna bet?’ They’re like, ‘What?’ I go, ‘I’ll bet you money. I’ll bet you money I know that.’ ‘How could you know that? It hasn’t happened yet!’ And bla bla bla. I said, ‘Because that’s what happens.’ And she was like, ‘No, but, but.’ She wanted to treat life like everybody’s different. Okay, everybody’s different. But everybody’s the same, too. That’s what you learn when you’re old. Yeah! Yeah, glory to everybody, we’re all different. And, we’re all the same. So you know what’s gonna happen. You’re not gonna be surprised by much by the time you get much over 50. It’s gonna be, oh god this is happening again. And if you’re really smart, you see it coming, and you leave before it happens, so you don’t get hurt by it. It’s like, ‘Oh, this is getting a little too out-of-hand, I think I’ll leave.’ So, I forgot where that all started, but that’s where it ended.
Ditt: Well it was — curious about, starting like, interacting with a community, so … And the health of a community; we were talking about broccoli. But it was also just sort of … I was thinking about the size of a community you can actually make observations about. When we say, people are entitled now, or people are getting less mature. Like, are we talking about just in our personal experience, or … How much of our experience is the culture, or stuff we’re trying to filter out of like, media, and how much of it is bullshit?
DA: Well, here’s the impossible thing for me and the media. I don’t know what the media’s agenda is and who they’re talking about. So there’s part of the media where nobody’s responsible for anything, and everything’s happening there in a void, and it’s just happening. And a lot of information is presented that way, like: there’s no cause, it’s all effect. And, we’re being effected. And nobody’s willing to say, it’s this! And then there’s a finger-pointers, who can’t—whoever they’re pointing the finger at, it doesn’t lead to whatever the conclusion is. So the media isn’t making too much sense to me right now, because the stories as they’re told don’t have a beginning, a middle, and an end. There’s no linear way to follow it, so there’s some big chunks of the story not being told.
Ditt: Okay, yeah.
DA: Because that’s kind of the nature of the story; it’s got a beginning. There’s like, you know, they set off on a hike, they started climbing up the hill, they wove around, and they ended up at the top. Right? And so I don’t trust the media; not because of the information, but because, it’s not complete. And so, it’s hard to sit there and point at whatever you’re going to point at, so what you get is, snippets of ideas, that trigger emotion. And, which can’t be trusted. Like, ‘oh wow.’ Because if you start asking yourself, ‘Why are you telling me that?’
Ditt: Yeah! Yeah.
DA: Like, more currently, it’s—You know, a year ago, we’re hearing all this stuff about the Ukraine; now we’re hearing about everything they told us about the Ukraine isn’t true. It’s like, either side of that story, why are they telling me that? Why, of all the things? These are gigantic, media-driven companies … why are they telling me that?
Ditt: And maybe, yeah, and maybe — That sort of adds some perspective. ‘Cause you talked about, they can manipulate using words. It’s like, they? Who’s they? Well, it’s these big companies; these big media companies. But also maybe, it’s like, if the stories they’re telling are incomplete, that also could tell us that … That they’re not telling—I mean, from what we were just talking about before, about judging a partner. If a partner’s trying to manipulate you, they’re not mature. You know, so similarly, we could extrapolate that the media’s full of immature … Or there’s like; We could judge the maturity of where we’re all at as a society, by like, our media doesn’t seem very mature.
DA: Yeah! Well, you figure like — It’s a high level of immaturity if we know that we’re creating products that are destroying the planet that we need to survive. That’s just immaturity. You know, back in the 70s, it was air. It was like, we’ve got to do something about polluting the air, because this is becoming unbreathable. And so minimally, what they did, they got the color out of the stuff they were polluting the air with. I don’t know if they got all the lead out, but … But at least they got the color out of it, so at least the sky looks blue again.
Ditt: (Laughs) Jesus!
DA: What do we know? What do we know. And you can get into any of all that crazy stuff. So in the meantime, as a human, it’s like — Where do I want to have impact? Am I putting myself in the position where I can have that impact? That’s why when this knight in shining armor stuff came up in my mind, and I was getting a little too obsessive about it, I called you! I said, Dittmer we got to do something! Because this stuff’s driving me crazy. This idea; I really see, that the issue is, we’re holding onto portions of these old stories, that are keeping our men from maturing in their relationships; and they’re getting involved and remaining too immature for too long, to have effective relationships to build societies with. Because the man and woman relationship, and how that functions, is what society is built on. And so when, when the men aren’t mature enough, for all the reasons that we’re not, and the women aren’t mature enough, because of all the reasons they’re not … They’re trying to pretend they can define the other person’s responsibilities while they’re not taking any responsibility for the decisions they’re making. They’re all too immature!
Ditt: And then if you’re … Like myself in the online argument, instead of acknowledging failure, you … Another option, rather than acknowledge failure, is to deny responsibility, or try to put it on the other person, and to survive that way. It’s kind of a survival … (edit)
DA: And what I’m saying is, that, we are already at such a deficit of personal responsibility; that, when all these people are saying whatever they’re saying, especially when it comes to local behavior, I mean … We have got to step up our involvement in our communities! We have got to be vigilant in what we’re doing; and we’ve got to support each other in doing it. But that means we have to have the discipline to adhere to rules.
Ditt: Yeah.
DA: And we’ve got to make the rules clear. … I’ve gotta go. This has been intense.
Ditt: I’m laughing because I’m thinking like, ‘What’s the best conclusion?’ And I’m like, ‘Oh that’s it. That’s the best conclusion, right there!’ (Laughs) Hey, thanks a lot for coming on. Hopefully, more times to come, but … I hope we got into that knights in shining armor, the way you needed, wanted … You know what it sounded like, though—Man, you’ve got a … I think that .. People who are happily married, or have been through it, the way you and your wife have … like, been married a long time, and are like, ‘Yeah. It’s difficult but I’m here.’ It’s not all fuckin’ happily ever after, but, ‘I did it; we’ve done it; I respect her, she respects me.’ I think you feel like, a responsibility to share what’s working, or share what works.
DA: And I know the, being protected by the ferocity of a woman. I’ve accepted that as a part of my life. Is this woman has exposed herself in a way, that, she is so trustworthy that my security is high. And, which makes me brave enough for us to have this conversation. Because, there’s probably not a few years ago, where this conversation couldn’t be had. Except where I keep talking to her; I keep talking about these things. And she’s glad that I’m here, to have this conversation with you. So thank you.
Ditt: Thank you Mitch.
DA: Do it again!
Ditt: Hey, hey.